Why REAL-TIME Adjustment Changes Everything | Workspace Design Lab Ep. 1

In this premiere episode of Workspace Design Lab, host Syl Vander Park sits down with her father, Tony Vander Park, President and Design Director at NovaLink. Together, they explore the origin and evolution of Series 7.8, a parametric console workstation designed for real-time adjustment, ergonomic precision, and lasting sustainability. This episode captures Tony’s deep design philosophy, manufacturing insights, and a legacy of human-centered innovation.

IN THIS EPISODE
• What sets Series 7.8 apart from Series 7.5
• How bi-directional monitor movement supports visibility and interaction
• The significance of ADA compliance and anti-fatigue workstations
• Patent insights from years of ergonomic console design
• How modular design supports sustainability and longevity
• The origins of the term “Parametric Contract Furniture”
• Real-world use cases from traders, utilities, and control rooms
• How NovaLink consoles are built to support changing tech
• The role of Canadian manufacturing in sustainability
• Legacy insights from over 30 years of workspace evolution

BEST MOMENTS
00:01:44. “Series 7.8 was developed as a follow through from Series 7.5.”
00:03:02. “The monitor rack can go that low as well.”
00:04:09. “Once the monitors are down low enough, the user can see over top of the monitors.”
00:05:34. “The patent lawyer had an easy time making the case.”
00:08:22. “Series 7.8 does all of that really good stuff.”
00:10:00. “Touch of a button, they all move back and forth.”
00:14:36. “You can make these changes. And that's really what it's all about.”
00:25:19. “That was our very first height-adjustable workstation.”
00:51:20. “It opens up whole doors to possibilities that weren’t there before.”

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Transcript

0:00

It's a console that can be adjusted in real time. You can press the button, you can go up or down. You can go backwards or forwards. You can adjust the work deck. You can tilt your large overhead monitor. If you've got now light coming in from an undesirable angle late in the afternoon through the windows and you want to change the tilt of your monitor, you can do that. Welcome to Workspace Design Lab, the show where architects, interior designers and workplace leaders explore the future of workspace interiors. Each week we dove into ergonomic office design, modern workspace trends and sustainable furniture solutions that improve wellbeing and performance. I'm Silvana Vander PARC and together will uncover the stories, strategies and innovations that help you design offices that truly work. Let's dove in. Okay, so we have put a lot of the content from our first audio only interview in the about format on the on the new website. Okay. So here we are in New York and you're busy sketching desks. Yeah, I'm actually working on the development website for series seven eight. Right. The project development website. Right. And we're building out the whole designing out all the ancillary parts to make the system. Work. And. To be. Like an integrated furniture system. Yeah. Okay. Series 7.8. How would you describe what Series 7.8 is and how it's important to the market? Seven eight was developed as a follow through from series seven five and Series seven. Five had a shortcoming in that it lacked flexibility to maneuver the monitors in and out, backwards and forwards. So the series seven eight has the bi directional capability, the monitor rack has a bi directional capability. And what's significant about that is on the profile, a console base module which is complies with USADA legislation and anti birthmarks, etcetera. And what does it do? It goes down low enough that it allows the work deck to drop to 22 inches the top surface of the work deck can drop down to 22 inches and then it can adjust up to 48 inches. The travel is is is part of the anti business equation, but the 22 inches is key for ADA and because the console based module does that, the that the monitor rack can go that low as well. And that you get the bi directional movement now with the monitor rack it allows you to drop the monitors relevant, the work deck which is say 28, 29 inches high. It allows you to move the to drop the monitors and move them back so that a seated person can still see them fully, can can see the entire screen that it's it's the screen is dropping away and becoming like just not not accessible to the user. So. And why was that? That was half of the equation. The other half the equation is that once the monitors are down low enough, the user can see over top of the monitors and then begin to experience interaction with the full workspace, with coworkers, with supervisors able to look at display walls, potentially look out windows. You know, St Lawrence Seaway looks out windows. I am gold looks at display walls. Traders look at each other and have hand gestures and yeah, so that's that's almost sums it up, you know, what was the the features that were necessary in seven, eight and why it's significant and what was the thrust of it? And the strength of of seven eight was that the patent lawyer had an easy time making the case for it to put a strong application forward for the patents. Right now, for anybody listening who is curious about the patent process. Yes. Run us through. It. I called briefly lawyer. And he does everything. You have to be knowledgeable to see if we're talking about patent process relevant to furniture and relevant to console workstation. So you have to know enough about console workstations to know what is something that's valid, right? And otherwise you're just spinning your wheels. You're just going to go to a lawyer and and you're going to ask him to start figuring it out. And that just isn't the way to do it. You've got to have it figured out in your own right. That is the big thing you've got to have it actually written out to a fair degree, more or less as I already described it, in terms of the bi directional movement. And that that is the key feature. I mean, series seven five was patented for of the spatial arrangement between the monitor rack and the work deck, but because it didn't have the bi directional movement, it was, it's not as strong as the series. Seven eight is a series seven eight just goes into another league and, and we're excited about it because it empowers the, the user to be able to make adjustments to his workstation, to the console workstation, not his his her. I didn't, I didn't. I didn't jump on that. Because I'm all too aware of this and they have to be able to they don't have to, but they are empowered to be able to make adjustments to their console workstation so as to in real time, so as to to be in sync with the circumstances being experienced in the workspace, you know, the demands of the business, the the relationships on the floor as things change during the day, as people get tired during the day and they have to stand up and stretch, and if you have to be in touch with certain people, if you have to see things, you have to be able to make all these adjustments. And while you're perhaps standing, you want to be able to lower your monitors so that you can converse with somebody who's still sitting right, you know, and and again, series seven eight does all of that really good stuff. Yeah. The bi directional is for ocular focus. So your eyes get tired and that's the main idea. The bi directional was to be able to position the monitors down and away so that you could see them when they're recessed. It's it's a secondary. It's, it's, it's one of those unique like a windfall benefit. The ocular exercise that you can have by being able to move the monitors forward and backward. And this is where the patent lawyer really hit the nail on the head. He and I didn't grasp it at first, but he really appreciated that the monitors on the design the way it is with the the the uniform monitor rail and all the monitors mounted on the, the, the horizontal monitor rail that when you move the monitors in and out, they move as a cluster. You do not have to deal with each monitor one at a time. Right. They move as a uniform cluster. Right. And so that is very reasonable. That's that's that's actually a big plus to the whole concept. And and so therefore. Once you have them set in place touch of a button, they all move back and forth. That's correct. And so you get the ocular exercise with regards to your entire spectrum of monitors. Hence we call it the monitor spectrum, even if they're stacked, you know, if you have five across three high. So you've. Got a real. Cluster of monitors, all this can move. You know, the the the consoles have £1,000 of lifting capacity so they can carry this load and the. And move it. Yes. And the the the machine rails on the system keeps everything in line right on 2% parallel. Yeah. I mean that that's that's probably one of the secrets really of the design is that it has to be parallel. Mm hmm. And otherwise it just doesn't move. You know, if you've got real weight on there, right? Well, the real weight can can just slide back and forth. Right. When you were talking about real time adjustments and you know, we've Novelli has been through a series of names. You know, you had no blank no filing system pack. Yeah. Then we start to get into the series numbers. But we had Oscar and then the series numbers and and then we went to Nova like parametric contract furniture to differentiate it from the, you know, probably 100 other companies that are now called Nvlink out there. Well, but also to just describe what kind of furniture we do and the the Parametric, a lot of people say, well, what do you mean by parametric? It was so difficult. Like the problem with when you're developing a console like this, it's so jam packed with features and ideas, it's very difficult to kind of distill them down into what is the real essence of it. And the term parametric contract furniture was registered as a trademark before Nova Link. Parametric Contract Furniture was registered. So yes, in in registering nova linked parametric contract furniture of the year, the emphasis was to tie the name Nova link into the whole equation. But the term parametric contract furniture was challenged for being descriptive, but it was overrode because the the description was not literal in terms of what parametric is defined as, you know, a parametric equation, parametric software adjusts automatically to new parameters as they're put in. So a parametric console furniture doesn't do that because it's the nature of the situation. So if you think of. Plato desk or something. Well, if you wanted to adjust to this height, do you want everything to automatically adjust? No, the user doesn't want that. The user has his own, his or her own set of circumstances that they need to deal with. So these are the circumstances in the room. And and there isn't any mathematical linkage between them necessarily. So the term parametric contract furniture was then understood not to be literal. It's not a literal description, it's a suggestion. It's more of a suggestion of an understanding of what this is about, is that it's it's a it's a console that can be adjusted in real time. You can press the button, you can go up or down. You can go backwards and forwards. You can adjust the work deck. You can tilt to your large overhead monitor if you've got now light coming in from a an undesirable angle late the afternoon through the windows and you want to change the tilt of your monitor. You can do that if you want to go to a standing position and you want to change it, you can you can make these changes. And that's really what it's all about. It's it's to try and encapsulate the idea of workstation dynamics. And we played with all these words and once we really hit on the the definition of parametric, it just seemed to strike home that yes, the user is the center point of the parametric process. They're the math. That's right. Yeah, it's that's correct. But that the desk has all these flexibility. That's right. Yeah. Which was better than flexible, you know, furniture because that's a gives another idea. That's right. And that all the other terminologies in the business and this is where you know you've got all these features built in and how do you explain what is right? The essence of the desk, right of the console. You know, you've put all this effort into designing it and you've got patterns and all this. What makes it different from so-and-so's? So that maybe makes an arc or so-and-so's card so that it has a split that capability, but they don't really allow the monitors to be adjusted in on the console top such that in the workspace they enhanced the user's ability to interact with the workspace, be it coworkers. You know, as I said before, coworkers supervise users, display walls, windows, any number of these things. Yeah, yeah. No, it's good you're talking about like there's all these features, you've got the monitor flexibility or adjustment flexibility tilting back and forth. Yeah. You got your, you call it work that. The whole thing is on the third zone. Just to be clear, tilting is not. On the front ones, it's. Not on the middle zone. Because if you've got a cluster of two or three tiers of monitors or one tier and and you've got say 43 inch monitors side by side and you've got four of them. Yeah. You don't really want to be messing with them much because they're just going to get out of sync and relationship. I understand it's that it's that one that, you know, overhead with the one monitor that you're maybe overseeing the the airplane runway or, you know, kind of thing. But runway, yeah. So the work surfaces, you call it work deck, the work surfaces go height adjustable up and down independent from the monitor decks. That's correct. You can do multi zones. The products are inherently sustainable. We can have a separate conversation about sustainability. You know, sustainability is is is a big part of the the the thinking because the modular nature of it, the long term warranties on it means that you can't guarantee for a fact that a third party lift leg will not at some point give out. So you have to be able to take things apart. You have to be able to. And yeah, and technology can change. I mean, we're seeing an infusion now in the works. Some of the workplaces are bringing in multiple curved ultrawide monitors and we're having to do large side by side configurations where as many as 349 inch monitors, which are each 47 inches wide, are forming a workstation around the user. And interestingly enough, there is a need to not have the arc too wide. Right. You know, you've got to be able to pull these monitors in so that it's not out of the the vision range of the user, that they're they're close to the monitors. Right. And that's all important stuff. And being able to change out for whatever comes next, you know, in the in the technology that's going to come out in the future. I mean, there's we started out you started out no blank with with CRT monitors and being sunk into the desk at an angle. And this, you know. Started out with nine inch CRT homes, you know, and then then that changed into a combination of the three nine inch, which were on the the Reuters programable keyboard. And then you got into your first 12 inch pieces and then that graduate. The. Bloomberg monitors came in and. Yeah, and then the 12 inch PC graduated into a 12 inch or 14 inch color P.C. and then that graduated into larger monitors. And then, you know, if you were a money market kind of guy, you had the I know it was the bond markets that were always sent to the Bloomberg and quite often they were shared. So then you had to have a perch to put them be the so they could be shared between two traders and and people could still see over top and deal with each other. These were all key features that to some degree in the rush to embrace a CRT or. Else it. Is LCDs were just brushed aside. And if you go into many trading rooms now, it's like people are in cubbyholes and they have a quite often 43 inch monitors in portrait mode, you know, around them. Yeah. And I, we've done trading desks where you have as many as 24, 24 inch. That's incredible. And they literally have one or two screens in their there. Were screen of screens, you. Know, as a whole removed so that they can see through to somebody. Yes. So it's always been there. And it's it's it's it's it's it's a an aspect of the trading business. It's the aspect of of control rooms that's been lost because people just think, well, you just can't have it anymore. Long below a hold. The overlay came along with scary stuff and they'd say, and I said, You can have the guys, you can have your cake and you can eat it too, right? Yeah. That's it. That, that show, you know, we strayed from the. Sustainability. Of sustainability. Yeah. Well but what's interesting is that in some cases those deaths that started out maybe as CRT desks have are still maybe in use today with the core structure. That. Work surfaces replaced. Yeah. So that you don't have to, you know, sink anything into the workstation area. It was like an odyssey almost, you know, it started out with as described with the CRTC and then the, the, the turrets that the trading telephones. This is for financial trading. And it was used for a lot of other things like 9110, the most desirable turret phone was the IPC because they were small modules that could be connected together into a large horizontal affair and you could make a chassis, you could sink them into the work deck, you could have your monitors drop down behind them, but you could still see just over top of the top edge of the telephone and see the screen of the monitor, the full screen. And you could see over top of the monitor and see your buddy across the board. You know, I know we're not talking about ability, but it's it's the dynamics. Well, it's the modularity, right? Because then you could you could put those in. You could take them out, you could switch out work surfaces. I'll get back to there's just one point that I wanted to make about the the sightlines. I did a trading room once for LA. BEAUBIEN and it was a back. BEAUBIEN And combination National Bank at that time in Canada. And the. Fed trader, you know, we were designing the desk and he says, I want to be so close together with the guy on the other side. I want to see what he's writing. I want those those nine inch monitors to be sunk into the work deck so low and so close together that they're using minimal space. And I want to be that close. You know, that they want to be that tight. Right. So that's the dream space. Now, you know, probably things have improved somewhat with digital communications sides. It's not the same as it was. But anyway, so going back to the sustainability early on, probably one of our very first height, adjustable work decks or workstations quickly became a dual zone because it was a hydro electric application. Yeah, yeah. And it was for their main control room where they actually sell the electricity to other organizations that buy the electricity. And so this was the first time we've I encountered a situation where they wanted ten CRTC side by side, but they wanted to see overtop of them and they wanted to be able to drop those CRTC down a little bit if they were standing. So this ability to see overtop because they had a big mimic wall, that's what they would call it. It was it it showed the entire electrical system of the the utility, the very large one, and it showed all their different generating stations in different places and even transformer facilities. And it would tell them at a glance that they were all working or that they were on line. Right. And if something was not on line. It would flash. A big display wall which would show it. Okay. So the sightlines were very important and these ten monitors had to be wrapped right around. Yes. The and interestingly enough, a horseshoe layout. Yes, there's. Hydro-Quebec is still using various. Amazing. And how many years ago was that. I know it's almost 35 years. Yeah. And we have supplied new leg structures for them. Yeah. We've changed out work decks for them but it's a big wrap around Castle. Yeah. We've moved it from one building to another. Yeah. And they like it very much. They, they like the style of it. So did any of the desks have to change kind of layout like that roughly. You. No, they really liked what they had because it was a really long and open kind of walk up off the floor. Yeah. And all the monitors, I mean it's, it's long ago that they were all converted to LC these and I'm sure that they're probably all the old Dell CDs are because they're just flat decks they weren't they weren't kind of like rails structures or anything. So they, they just put the on the stands that come from Dell or. HP. Or somebody like that. And I'm sure that if you went into their office now, the the smaller LCDs are replaced by the Ultrawide. Sure. Hey, quick pause. Workspace design can feel overwhelming, right? Requirements. Considerations and costs aren't always clear and sometimes you're left guessing about what to prioritize. At novel ink, we endeavor to help cut through that noise with a product and a process featuring the team that offers experience, knowledge and step by step guidance. It just makes the whole journey easier. If that's the kind of support you're looking for, click the QR code or see the link in the show notes. Now back to the conversation. So we talked about the modularity. Where did the the idea of doing a modular design come from? It's really a derivative of the manufacturing process. The C and C components produced off of it are the standard generic materials, steel in particular, I guess not. Not really prone to having everything connected together. It's not like an automobile where you send it down a line and you have all kinds of robotic arms as well together. It's so that the consoles are assembled with standard fasteners. Mm hmm. Are they allowed things to be put together or taken apart? They allow product to be repaired, upgraded. You reconfigure the car. The sustainability aspect is really that the parts are always available. There's an outside chance that the supply chain part, something that we do not make ourselves list like or other parts, is no longer available. And fortunately, we're working with good companies and they especially with the weather system, they've been very prudent about making a new system. A new like a new detail are compatible with all details, with all dimensions. So you can lift out a Dell one and put in a dial on a dial once are no longer available d one A's are not available on an inventory base, but you can order the out. Interestingly, when the Dell six like was introduced, they made sure it would fit exactly right into the Dell. What a great. Yeah so the same connected parts right. The difference in the legs are there's certain aspects of it that are different shape at a certain secondary components that support work decks so on are different that they have different routing goals. So if you have to do a wholesale change out of a list system on a different console, you can do it. There are going to be a few parts that you're going to need that the old desk didn't have, or maybe it had, but they're no longer suitable for the new part. They are a small quantity, a small percentage of the the components that interact with the lift system. And they're a big part of our whole approach to sustainability is that the components that we manufacture that make up 90% of the costs are manufactured by Nokia, like from standard materials. So they are manufactured in standard materials, they are available at standard prices and they are available with standard warranties. So either you're potentially buying a replacement component or even a custom component, and you're going to get it at standard prices. Standard time, like I like delivery timelines for production timelines and you're going to get it with standard warranties. So it's like buying a standard product. And there, there, unless we change our methods, this scenario has is is open ended. It's there. And that's where like the spine system is still joint from select customers, excellent sales. The spine system dates back to series I guess 5.5 and earlier. Yeah, it actually goes back to series one. Yeah. Which was the cantilever console system. That's what it was called. Right. And then we went through a succession of series two, Series 2.5, Series 275. I can't remember the series, but there was a whole host of them. They were all in response to new technology. Right. And they were all adaptable to the spine system. Right. So that's a pretty strong argument when you look at customers like, well, I won't say the customer's name, they're a major railroad and they are retaining the spine system with the partition panels that go up to six feet. They are gutting the old lights system and the work decks inside of the beam and they're bringing in new seven, eight consoles which have the duals that the dual height adjustable zone. Yeah but the the bi directional right of movement of the monitor rack which is you know the it gets the users tremendous. Yeah. An enhancement yeah. For what they're doing. Yeah so and these these kind of things flow rate into hot button design issues, you know seven eight is being designed with partition panels that you could separate positions one from the other. So you could get it with glazed panels, you could get it with acoustic panels, you could get it. And it's very, very durable. It's it's the rigidity of the partition panels. It's really quite astounding. It's almost like I'm talking a little bit like vaporware. There's just a whole raft of new developments in, in the process that will accompany the series seven or eight consoles. Right. And so there'll be large U-shape consoles. There will be consoles where you have shared piers between consoles which are actually conference tables. They are potentially there returns. Yeah. Kind of, yeah. Large returns. They are potentially static or height, adjustable. So there's there's just a lot of things that are brewing. Now, the other thing, there's two points. First of all, you know, one is like the equipment, access equipment, a combination we've talk about monitors will get to CPU's and other things, but just to back up a little bit where the sustainability is, I think a big key is like, you know, managing to have there's sustainable design and then there's sustainable manufacturing. You know, just to highlight that the product is made in Canada, you know, it's, it's not farmed out. It's because sometimes we think, well, we want like green options that are cost effective and, you know, keeping the manufacturing in North America, you know, we're maintaining a, you know, standards for our personnel. You know, there's there's a whole host of things that go, you know, with with, you know, fair work environments and all that kind of stuff that goes together with sustainability, you know. The going back to the product making one point about it, it's series 75 and the proximity of Series 78 to Series 75. Those products are there. They're compliant with the requirements of the GSA in the U.S. and they are also were compliant with abysmal standards for commercial furniture. So I don't know. You know, so there's there's these are standards for off gassing. These are these are standards for rigidity, load bearing qualities. These are standards for yeah. Rigidity and structural integrity of the product. Yeah. No, it's just it's just there's, there's like there's all the, you know, just kind of checklist items, you know, there's the sustainability, there's the, you know, various policies that we have to comply with in the company to deal with multinational companies, you know, major corporations that have, you know, supplier codes of ethics and stuff like that and that, you know, there's compliance there. And I think that's all part of the sustainability is building a company that can respond to our clients needs to be ethical and and developing being proactive and you know, off gassing, carbon footprint, all that kind of stuff as much as possible. And at the point that we are really we our shop owns the factory shop and it's gone more than 2000 deaths, 2000 consecutive days without a time loss injury. Injury, yeah. Yeah. And and the people, I mean, they've been there for decades, many of them, you know. And so we're aware, you know, and we, we buy machines that are extremely safe. Yeah. We opt for more choices. For instance, press their out stroke. Yeah. They're no longer sold by a partner who is the manufacturer because they're not conducive to be harmonized with robots. And oh, okay. It's just the Up Stroke Act. And basically the robots work with down stroke rest breaks so that the part is placed in the machine, right in a stable position. And then the machine response to that part and makes it's it's it's incredible. Okay. You know, it's it's just so the the but the press breaks are just unbelievable with sense. Okay. There's been minutes. And the reason being is that when you're holding the part in the machine and you step on the channel to operate it, you are absolutely aware that the machine is moving. Yeah. Because your, your hands are moving with the part. Yeah. And so you are involved in that process and so therefore it draws your attention to it. It's not like your hand is in there and suddenly a dye comes down on your hand. Right, I'll catch you by surprise. It's the same thing with the we have no shirts in the factory here. It's again our the kind of machine that will remove a finger in a heartbeat. Yeah. So everything is all our parts are programed for see it, see stamping the unit and sheets of steel are sent into the machine. They're clapped into space and hands are drawn away. You have safety lights around the perimeter of the machine, so you can't go close to it. Right. And so the machine just runs, it does its thing. And so there are no accidents that. Yeah. And you're, you're dealing with and we, we don't get into overtly large sheets of steel. We don't get it to overly large, thick gauge. It's which basically runs up the way it's the weight of the sheet and can be a problem for the operator. Yeah. Over the woodshop we have installed the lifting assists. In fact, we have stone lifting assists throughout the plant in the shipping and supply in the woodshop. Several places now at. So these assists lift the sheet of laminate you know a laminated board generally four by eight feet now and they lift and they sit fit the middle of a machine or they sit at the bottom of a table for some kind of secondary process. And so the again, we're just not experiencing, you know, strained backs, strained arms. Yeah, hurt fingers becomes it's it's just you're allowing machines to do the work for you. It doesn't take a while, but it's, it's not like it's rocket science, which is just the company still widget for it. You know, this, this is one of the other things we do. Instead, of course, it's, say, somebody who was feeling steel into a stamping machine to have to go and get a lift truck in order to handle that. We buy have bought for the different departments at the different machine operations. We buy appropriate lifting machines basically walking lifting type devices that can carry a heavy load so that when they need to move something, they've got their dedicated chain. They don't have to go and ask for the lift truck. And it's the guy on the lift truck. Since I'm busy right now, I can't do that. Yeah, they try to do it doing something that is inappropriate, right? Good productivity. Yeah. Giving the people the machines they need for that productivity and having a mind for safety is a big thing and it's really panned out for us. Yeah. What would you say? And you can ponder this. You can answer it now. I can answer it again or answer in the future. What is what is the legacy that you want to leave behind? I believe I did my best and did my best for customers. Wow. Customer satisfaction is such a big thing. It goes back to our roots. Doing your best for your employees. You know, you carry them through thick and thin. It's your team and your team is what gets you through. They help you deliver the goods. They help you achieve good results. So quality control, it is a full team effort. It's not left to one individual or individuals. Oh, it's the entire shop is encouraged to have an eye for problems and they feel free to speak up when they think they see something. Yeah, so that's important in that for my wife, who's been partner, definitely does your best at work and having a good work, you know, you put everything in to having a good working relationship and trusting. And I think the fact that there's that trust element between my wife and I that it works its way through to how we relate to other people in the shop. And yeah, so are so very happy with our little one. Yeah. With, with the little, you know, involvement and the desire to make things work, to, you know, clearly it's, it's good to not be following. Exactly. So doing what has previously been done, but to start looking at new ways of doing things and new considerations that. Now I was talking about your grandchild, but. Okay, you're talking about me. Yeah, well, you know, it's you have to do things within your talents or else it's fake. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's, it's it's it's it's it's good to have baby. It's a bit. Yeah, and to to really apply your mind to it. And I would say that you are, you are, you are taking a step that you think is right and is appropriate and and I'm all for it. Yeah. You know, and I believe. I would say your your optimism is, is your, your final stamp, you know, on things. We believe we can and we have walked and, you know, if you go back to 1998, when probably the first time I felt the spine system sort of it was at its zenith. And you could sense in customers that I was making a presentation to a particular customer in Hong Kong and you could sense that the parameters of the spine system were no longer offering all the magic for sealing the deal now. And you knew that you had to develop this product or develop a new product. And so, yeah, the optimism was never to quit, you know, for there to be personally, I feel like it was within reach and it's it has been a struggle, but it's within reach. And you are you just stay on it and, you know, it's, it's it's such a pleasure when you find yourself working with a knowledgeable buyer who is suddenly says, I got. Thank you, George, thank you. George from Hodgson. Russ Yeah. And that you can see it. Yeah. And actually contributes. Yeah. A way of looking at the product that goes beyond with what I was originally just seen. Yeah. So it's, it's this product is a series eight the monitor spectrum concerns I think has the potential to offer another way of looking at furniture at the workspace. You know, commercial furniture, commercial console workstations and how that work space works. You know how it interacts, how the the the user group and the supervisors function. It opens up whole doors to possibilities that weren't there before, you know, with, with all the equipment piled up and all the everything barricaded out. So it this is a real challenge to to communicate what the furniture can do and. The difference it can make. Yes. Yeah. Because people just assume, oh, everything's going to be a wall of monitors. And, you know, this is were in a cubicle of equipment and this is just it. But we're saying, no, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. But also, you know, in the world of the post COVID 19 world, people like to be just a little bit more farther apart. They like to have their space. So it these consoles are really conducive to spreading out monitors on a single tier. It's kind of yeah great. And a spread out works surface. Yeah. And it gives people more personal space that's right. That's right. And progressively, we're going to add more and more personal identities for. Storage and kind of decorations and for. Photographs of their family or that they're not those of trips that's that they've participated in so that it's their space. Yeah. At this point I think it has to be part of the ergonomic equation. It is enough to just say, Oh, well, we're going to give it somebody height, adjustable, this that. We have to. They need to feel at ease. They need to have that sense of comfort. There has to be this team amalgamation at the workspace, otherwise it becomes a miserable space. That's over the years. If there's anything I like, chat the office. I like to joke. I'll make jokes, you know, self condescending jokes or jokes about somebody else. Yeah. But yeah, it's just, you know, chew the fat about sports. Chew the fat about this or that. Talk about music. Yeah, yeah. So it creates a bond. You know, people have a sense of trust that they know that there's nothing burning in the back of your brain that is going to catch. Yeah, I grew up with I have marginal regard for you know it's it's they now basically understand where I'm coming from. Yeah I know what I values are and how it relates to that and I think that's a big thing. It's huge. It's huge. You know, I would probably if somebody said, well, what advice would you give? You know, somebody starting up a company, I would imagine it would be like, you know, persevere, never say no to a customer. You know, reasonably speaking, you know, I always say, yeah, I'll give it a go. What else would you say, Sarah? Third point. It's it. I mean, one has to be realistic. One business can be entirely different than another business. And furniture business has the luxury that it tends to give you real a lot of real potential to make things happen because furniture as opposed to doing something that is entirely chemical or entirely software or that there are things that a single person just does not have that much control over what it is dreaming with the big idea, the big the big idea in your mind is, is if you have an idea that this is something that's viable, that you know, something that's viable, it's going after it and not backing off. And if anything, we started from nothing. It was there was no financial resources, there was no manufacturing much. There was there was even a network of manufacturers of sub sections ready to step up and do things for you. You had to start from scratch yourself and you had to believe in yourself, you know, such that when you look into a customer's eyes, they each look back at you. He's buying into you because and you always have to do go out and take the extra step, build it, give them a real hands on idea as to what you're offering. So it's it's it's it's being gutsy, being committed to what you believe are you know, it's it's it's clearly over the years developed a lot of ideas are office space, furniture, things that are important that I believe are important and you go after it. Yeah, because If you're if you're not going to go after it, you're going to be a too when you're lost, you're you're just up against production and then you're just chase. Right. So it's, it's better to offer the customer something better. Yep. Something of quality at that such that they can say, yeah, this, this is worth buying. And, and we've been very fortunate to know we've the largest backs have bought our product, the largest government's military organizations, the largest utilities, the airlines, railroads. It just goes on and on, have purchase terms. This is a very big source of pride. You know, they can go anywhere they want. You know, they have the money, they have resources. They can do anything they want. When they fight you, it's sort of like for me, yeah, you're doing that. That's cool. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Thank you. You're all right.