Designing Workspaces for Human Performance | Workspace Design Lab Ep. 5

Is your office furniture silently sabotaging productivity?

In this episode of Workspace Design Lab, host Syl Vander Park is joined by Jane Sleeth, founder of Optimal Performance Consultants, to explore how workplace design impacts everything from physical injury to cognitive performance. With 35+ years of experience across manufacturing, banking, healthcare, and aviation, Jane breaks down what real ergonomics means—and why too many companies still treat it as a box to check.

From avoiding costly design mistakes to planning for inclusivity and longevity, this conversation is packed with insights for architects, designers, and workplace leaders who want to create environments that truly work.

Whether you're sourcing furniture or rethinking an entire space, this is an episode you'll want to bookmark.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Ergonomics is about movement, not just posture
• Good workstation design can prevent long-term injuries
• Human error is often the result of bad design, not bad workers
• Ergonomics includes physical, mental, and psychological dimensions
• Inclusive design starts with understanding the end user’s anthropometrics
• Early ergonomic involvement saves money and prevents liability
• Many design teams still treat ergonomics as an afterthought
• Real ergonomics requires adjustability, not just good marketing
• Education and training are essential to long-term success
• The ROI of ergonomic design is measurable and proven

BEST MOMENTS
00:03:28. “There’s no such thing as human error. There’s bad design. That’s the premise from which we start.”
 00:07:32. “We could prevent these accidents in the first place because we're seeing people for six months.”
 00:11:07. “We want you to come in and study what people do. What are their mental demands? What are their physical demands?”
 00:14:25. “The association itself never marketed the profession… I just undertook that myself.”
 00:22:47. “Excellent design means that you're pretty much trying to go across the spectrum.”
 00:26:00. “It made it a little more black and white so that the science really came through.”
 00:29:15. “Some of that is the design to account for that. But at the same time, a lot of it is about training.”
 00:31:05. “We're asking the human body, which is not linear, to sit in a linear chair behind a desk that's one size.”
 00:32:23. “Dynamic movement is good mentally but also physically. Circulation. Synovial fluid into the joints.”
 00:36:05. “The literature for people with osteoarthritis now is: keep moving.”
 00:41:10. “Let's do the return on investment. And when you choose those critical things… that was really important.”
 00:45:55. “The mistakes that are made… to be human. If we automate too much, then there'll be something lost in that.”
 00:49:08. “That's the magic of life. Those happy accidents, two people bump together… here's an innovative way to look at it.”

🔗 Explore NovaLink’s product and process for effortless workspace design: https://novalink.com

Workspace Design Lab | Healthy Spaces, Lasting Impact

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Join host Syl VanderPark as we explore ergonomic office design, modern interiors, and sustainable workspace solutions with architects, designers, and industry leaders.

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Transcript

0:29

ergonomics is also about movement. With movement, comfort is improved. So the human body becomes uncomfortable and over time injured with the lack of movement. So the literature, for example, for people with osteoarthritis now is keep moving. Oh, but I have arthritis in my joints I know keep moving. So if you build that into the design of workstations and the monitors can be moved fore and aft and at different heights, etc., you're creating that movement, coupled with a chair that is well suited to that environment. that's how you enhance comfort, create movement in the workplace. here we are with, Jane Smith from, optimal Performance Consultants. Now you're based out of Canada. how far do you look at ergonomics? geographically across Canada. So we actually have a team of consultants from Saint John's, Newfoundland, all the way to the island in British Columbia. Oh, wonderful. is it just is it, office when I started the business, over 35 years ago, it was predominantly manufacturing. And then we moved into the banking environments with TD and RBC, and then into some of the other banks. And then just over time, the way manufacture butchering changed in Ontario in particular, then it became more office related. Okay, so when you're talking about, like, manufacturing, you're working with manufacturers to create ergonomic solutions like ergonomically sound solutions. That's correct. So an example would be on an assembly line for at the time it was called Chrysler. Stellantis. It would be making sure as the industrial engineers were setting up the lines, that we were able to tell them how high the line should be, the furthest reach someone could do. What's the maximum, to push wires together. So we give them feedback and then they would go away and then change the design so that humans could actually perform the tasks. Okay. So really, it was like, a thrust in in helping, assembly line workers, That's right. and physical workers. Really? The physical, but then the psychological and mental side. Was with Nav Canada, for example, or a steel mill that's near here. Where there was a lot of human error occurring. And human error when you're navigating planes in the sky, would obviously be a disastrous. And in the steel mill, the errors actually had resulted in loss of life. So that's when we were dealing more with the mental aspects in terms of fatigue, preventing fatigue, preventing er, you know, a red button mean stop. A green button means go. And as simple as that sounds, sometimes button colors actually weren't intuitive. So it's all the way from the mental side, to the physical as well. Oh, interesting. So when you're talking about, errors, like human errors and stuff like that. Yes. Yeah. What do you So the way, the way most are gonna think, is that there's no such thing as human error. There's bad design. That's the premise from which we start. And you only arrive at the human as being the cause. Once you've disproven everything else. So is it the machinery? Is it the color of the button? Is it the, 12 hour shifts and people are fatigued and making mental errors? Quite often whenever we read about any sort of accident, whether it's an er, accident or the, the bus full of the hockey players that was hit by the truck right away, everyone zoomed in on the human being. And in fact, when you do a proper cause analysis, which is part of ergonomics, then it's not it's always multifactorial. And the human is only one of many things that that happen to go wrong on that particular day. Right. It was interesting, actually, this is reminding me of that movie. Was it called Sully? And it's about, you know, Captain Sully when he Oh yes. Hudson. The That's right. And Yes. a really interesting review. And he said, well, you have to take into all of these other considerations. That's right. And and that's where things like AI and machine learning is becoming a little bit frightening, because who's, who's telling the the machine and AI to, to make certain decisions. It's a human at that end. So are we going to try to minimize errors and solely think of the decisions he was making? Okay, if I do this, then maybe half of the people on the plane will die if I do this. So all those calculations. And that's where his deep experience is important and often forgotten with older employees who have that deep experience. And they've been through those scenarios and they can figure it out really quickly. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. Because I think the the, the turning point in the movie was when he said, you know, looking at the simulator reaction, the, the people in the simulator saying, well, they're just react. They're not even reacting to the bird attack kind of thing or whatever it was called. Yes. and they said, you know, we were kind of stunned for a few seconds. So you have to factor all that in. That's right. And and you want those few seconds to be narrowed down to an even faster decision because again, there's so many decisions. Altitude. And, you know, it's the plane on an angle. Where's the Hudson River? All all of those things together? Yes. yeah. So working on a machine, it's, you know, taking into all these factors, where was this world? Was that how That's right. machine off and all that stuff? But there's nothing better than also having the real life experience on top of that. Yeah. How did you get into ergonomics? good question. Because when I actually went into this field, it wasn't really well known in Canada, but I have two degrees that probably led me to that thinking. So I'm both, they have a kinesiology exercise physiology degree and then a second degree in physiotherapy. When I was working at a hospital near here in Toronto. There were many people coming in from the cookie factory just up the road from the hospital. They all came in missing parts of their hands or fingers. I won't go into the graphic detail, but most of the injuries were not particularly serious, but the psychological damage that was caused. You know, having lost a body part meant that we were seeing them for about six months. They had long ago healed, but we needed to get them back and ready to go to work. So I started to do a review of the literature and came across this science called ergonomics, which is really big in Europe and Australia. It's been around longer than in North America. And I approached the senior management team and I said, look, we could prevent these accidents in the first place because we're seeing people for six months. Some don't even go back to work. So there's a big human cost and an actual ROI cost. It was that was too forward thinking for the way that hospitals in Canada think at that time. So I had a business plan, already in place for this. So I then launched my own company and approached the cookie factory and other places where we had seen injuries occurring and talked about we could prevent this and we could get people to be more productive. So that was over 35 years ago that I did that. Wow. Yeah, I, I remember kind of, maybe 20 years ago, people talking about how to properly lift up, you know, a box, you know, a heavy box, you know. And that was that was my first encounter with ergonomics. Really? Right. Yes. And the irony with that training is no one picks up the box the way that was shown. So it's actually figuring out each person's body and what's the best way for them to pick up the box or the first question. And ergonomics is does that person need to pick up the box. So it's actually taking that question. Oh, should they be picking it up. That's always the first question in ergonomic design. Oh. That's interesting. Yeah. Well, I mean, we know you because you're you've helped us to, qualify our furniture. You know, analyze it in terms of ergonomic, features, Yes. I don't know how is it friendly features or. Yes. Yeah, that's that's a good word. Well, what's what's interesting is that there's. With my 35 years and working with and industrial engineers, the industrial engineers came about at first they saw says, you're going to cause us to stop the lines. It's going to be costly. You won't help us. Once that was proven to them, then we became a team. Okay. You're thinking of designing this? We would sit right beside them and health and safety and then come up with the right design. What's frustrating is in the world of furniture, there are, I can tell you, there are few, if any companies that ever come to either my company or other really experience companies and say, look, we're designing AB and C, we want you sitting at the table with the designer. So your company is very rare in that regard in terms of you have your design engineer coming together, working together, designing standards and and changing those standards over time as well. So that's a very rare thing that that happened. I guess you get. You get brought in so you can, you know, there's there's the assembly lines. There's, there's helping, you know, companies in their production facilities. There's, you know, helping companies to design, you know, kind of, more ergonomically, focused furniture. And, you get brought into work? Workspaces like workplaces are just regular to, to help people, either source things or Yes. help with posture Right. So, depending depending on the company. It some are more forward thinking than others. Some. For example. BMO and I'm not putting a plug in to any one company, but BMO. RBC in the past would bring us in and say, look, we're thinking of totally redesigning the capital markets area. We want you to come in and study what people do. What are their mental demands? What are their physical demands? How often do they break, take breaks? What what are their issues? What are the employees saying is an issue? And then we sit with the designers and would actually be able to to look at their designs, make modifications and then help them as a third party to decide what's the best furniture. So often we will review, a seating, workstations, meeting room, tables, all of those things. And then we'll narrow it down to three companies, all based on those objective standards, similar to, to the design of of of your workstation. And so that's the that's the best and most effective use of ergonomics. It's amazing. Probably 60 to 80% depending year to year of our ergonomics is hey Jane, look, can you come in and look at the design we just put in place and let us know how we did? That puts us in a bit of a a it creates a conundrum because we could actually get someone fired for not having us there in the first place. So we have to sort of be a little bit political and saying, hey, by the way, that that chair that you chose, we've never shortlisted that chair. It doesn't meet even basic ergonomics standards. So there was a large multinational consulting firm that did that brought us in to late. And so everything had been chosen. So. Okay. What exactly do you want us to do? Should we tell you a nice little white lie and say, yeah, everything's great or actually tell you. And in in the way that we did, I run an optimal performance. We tell them they might not like the message, but that's that's that's what we do for a living. Yeah. Bringing bringing you guys in as the initial planning, portion rather than just coming in saying, oh, can you give your stamp of approval on this? Yeah. That's right. And it's amazing. So then how often that's done. And it's like so clearly we're a check mark on a box by the health and safety or HR person. Yep. You had an ergonomics involved. Yep. Check. Okay. Well there's now a report sitting on their desk saying that that didn't meet the standards. But you know, which creates liability for them. And it's the irony is it's so much cheaper to bring in or columnist in. Right at the start. So then you don't need us at the end to sort of clean up the, the design, mess that often occurs. Yeah. No, I think, maybe it's just not mainstream enough or something that people think. Oh, automatically. Let's let's get the ergonomics and and, ergonomics. Excuse me. in fact, you know, I've always been frustrated by, for example, the Canadian Association who didn't market, ergonomics to the right people. So, you know, I had I got a marketing person. So we knew what to do, and, and but the association itself never marketed the profession. In fact, they tried to become a very exclusive group of, you know, only people with these degrees can, can be ergonomics. So they were more, you know, interested in that versus let's get everyone in who's practicing ergonomics. Let's tell corporations what it what it is. What are the benefits. What's the return on investment? So I just undertook that myself as a business owner, along with other good successful ergonomic companies. Sure. That's interesting. you know, I kind of wanted to say where where the history of ergonomics start, So if you look, if you talk to anthropologists, actually they'll when they dig up human bones and they can actually see wear and tear on the joints, they can figure out what someone was doing. And then they'll often also dig up tools, and they'll see that someone may have modified the tools. And we're talking about hundreds and hundreds of years ago it really took off with defense. So during the World wars, especially in Second World War, where a lot of planes were being flown, there weren't enough people out there that were experienced pilots, so there had to be very quick training. Unfortunately, the design of the planes were such that with that minimal amount of training, you had a lot of what was called human error. People crashing by mistakes, firing on, on their own people versus the, the enemy. So a lot of it came from defense and also NASA on and space programs. A recent example is one of the Canadian astronauts was supposed to do a walk to in the exterior, in space, and she couldn't do it because there were only male size suits and gloves. And so that actually prevented someone who was an excellent astronaut, who was slated to go outside and help with some repairs, couldn't, because someone forgot that women's bodies are very different than men's and needed proper design. So it's both space programs and defense that that really pushed ergonomics along. Okay. And then, I imagine with unionization of factories and and, you know, that pushing, saying, hey, we need to look after the health and well-being of of our of people. That's right. Unions played a big role. The, Unifor, which was at the time called the Canadian Auto Workers. They actually had a huge training program, and they would train a lot of union members and union reps about ergonomics. And we always like that because then they were more educated. So when we were able talking and sharing information, they were able to trust it. As opposed to well, I don't know, are they are they telling us the truth or not or, you know, are they bending some of the, the standards? So the more educated the union, the better it always was. We were able to really team up and work together. Interesting. Is there, that's going to say like, you know, is there some kind of. recommended kind of universal site or something for, for ergonomics that people can turn to or. probably I mean, many of the Canadian universities and Americans like University of Michigan, there's there's several university and college programs in kinesiology or engineering and then specializing in ergonomics, postgraduate, and so very similar standards are used across the board during, during that education. So University of Waterloo's and Simon Fraser as well in BC probably two of the best programs because they're such a big engineering group. And then they, they actually work hand in hand with the kinesiology office and then go into ergonomics specialization. So many of the colleges and universities have standardized the program. Hey. Quick pause. Have you ever felt like workspace design is one big puzzle with too many missing pieces? From budget questions to practical requirements, it can feel like guesswork. That's where no blank steps in. We bring you a clear product and a proven process, backed by a team with a know how to guide you step by step. No confusion, no overwhelm, just clarity and support from start to finish. If that sounds like what you need. Scan the QR code or check the link in the show notes. Now let's get back to the episode. very broad like, you know, like I guess people just maybe don't label it as ergonomics, you know, or is it mindful design or is it thoughtful design Yes. that, you know. That's right. Universal design, inclusive design, which is the terminology that we use when we're dealing with a population of people with disabilities. So you're right, there's a broad spectrum. It might be an industrial psychologist also involved in the mental demands part of things. So it is a really broad spectrum. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, kind of getting you can have a whole department looking at, various aspects of of ergonomics. Really? Yes. Yeah. And and ideally you have all those. what's kind of. Is there a is there a next kind of frontier of, of ergonomics that you're seeing or, I think the frontier that we have to overcome in North America is actually work. The benefits of ergonomics being known more in the UK for example, they and I joined that there. There are associations because they're so more advanced. And I always recommend to any young or gone amiss to do the same. The frontier in North America remains getting the word out about what's the benefit of having an ergonomic missed on the team? So that's that's it shouldn't be a frontier, but it still is. And the other frontier is getting interior designers and architects to bring urban ergonomics and inclusive design into I. I have sat with several groups, I've provided lectures and talks etc. and they we cannot get that that part of the design community to embrace ergonomics and inclusive design as a result, were brought in again after the fact by another group, usually HR or health and safety. Or it could be an operations person to say these designs were supposed to help people work better, but it's not happening. We're not seeing any return on the investment we made. Well, because the design looks great, but it's not functional. So those are the two areas. Yeah, because I'm starting to see inclusivity more in certain it. Like architects and designer interior designer groups or certain people that are specializing in. And now I've yet to really, you know, explore that to see how far it goes. Like, is it social? Is it ergonomic? You know, is it design? You know, functionality kind of related. Is it, you know, exactly what does inclusive mean? So again, good design will take into account. So for example, I was asked by RBC of several years ago. Hey, we're buying all new chairs for the office that we have in Barbados. Can you help us decide what's the best furniture? So my first question is who's who's working in that? What's the population like? So instead of using North American anthropometric data, and anthropometric is the size and dimensions of all the parts of the body, the predominantly the, the people that work in the banking industry in Barbados are women and local. So people who are who are from Barbados. So we, I actually use their anthropometric data to make sure that the chairs that they were going to be sitting in the desk, height, etc. would meet a smaller, shorter female end user. But at the same time, being cognizant of the fact that, of course, you're going to have men being hired or a variety of people, but we bias the data more towards their anthropometric. So it's important to know what population you're studying for. So in inclusive design, all we're doing is we're just teasing out things on both sides of the spectrum. Oh, if someone's in a manual wheelchair, I need the desk to go lower. If they're in a a a mechanized wheelchair, I need to make sure it's higher because as a general rule, people in manual wheelchairs sit shorter than people in a mechanized wheelchair. But then also being cognizant of people with sensory disabilities that, they may not have use of their right arm, and so they'll use their left arm for a task or they're they are deaf, deaf and hard of hearing. So it's just teasing out who we're actually designing for. Excellent design means that you're pretty much trying to go across the spectrum from that shorter person in a in a manual wheelchair to the tall, six foot seven, North American male who's also going to work there. So the better the design, the more we tease that out. Oh. That's interesting. And I imagine, there being some flexibility to changes in the future or something like that. that's right. So flexibility is a key with ergonomics. So sometimes you'll see an advertisement and someone will say oh it's an ergonomic toothbrush or there's a keyboard that's that doesn't have any adjustability in it. And it's called ergonomics. There's no standard in place to actually call out companies that call themselves Ergon or, you know, an ergonomically designed unless there's adjustability in it. It's not truly ergonomic because I need to fit a four foot nine, person to to that keyboard, for example, or the height of a workstation, all the way to that six foot seven male. Because, you know, we're we're going to see both. So having that adjustability and the greater the variability, the better the ergonomics. I was just thinking. It was. It reminds me of kind of organic food. It's like, what's the regulation on organic? Right. People are just using it because it's a buzzword. Yes. really cut through and for people to say, you know what, it's really worth it to really, pursue, a real standard because it, it does help, you know, people work better. Truly. That's correct. Yeah. And and there are standards out there and guidelines and and it's important. So a really good ergonomics firm will only use standards and guidelines. One of the things that helped us to become very disciplined about the use of, of standards and guidelines is because I had consultants from Saint John's, Newfoundland to, to the island and in Bmo's case, in, in, Chicago, in Minneapolis. Is that we all had to use the same standards. So no matter which consultant was assigned to do that job, they were going to find the same findings as if I had done that. And that's called into tester reliability, meaning that if I assigned you to do it or me, we're going to find the same findings. That's what's critical in terms of having standards and the discipline. And in fact, many of the unions we worked with made sure that the management had those standards in writing. And we had to be very careful, you know, yes, it meets standards. No it doesn't. Back to the drawing board. So it made it a little more black and white so that the science really came through. Instead. Yeah. Because there's. There's proven things. Yes. That's right. Proven aspects about head tilt and this and that, you Yeah. That's right. Over time and like any good evidence and you know, so many people are struggling with with understanding science and how to read evidence, it's also making sure that, you know, in our case, we do a lot of education about, okay, it's been well studied. Or you hear some of these catch phrases, the evidence shows, okay. How much evidence is it? Good evidence. Was it a well-designed study? Is it a big population that you're looking at. So it's got to be gold standard evidence brought to to make those standards. I guess one of the questions that I have is, you know, when you go to, let's say, you know, calculate the chair's ergonomic value, you know, and you're saying, okay, I'm going to sit down in this chair. Are you using, you know, your body to say this is uncomfortable? Is this you know what I mean? Or, So that's that's where you can use the anthropometric data. So what's interesting is we've had several males that are about six, 3 to 6, seven. When they sit, they don't sit like a tall male so that it's actually the dimensions of their body versus the length of their legs, etc.. So our dimensions change depending on the posture we're in. A well-designed chair will account for that. So a good chair will have lots of adjustability built into it so that I can get that. Hopefully a five foot zero female to a 95th percentile male. So about six six foot one into the chair. Anyone falling out of that, there should be the manufacturer should make a very similar chair. But it the the dimensions will accommodate them. okay. So I was going to say, you know, you have the slouch sitter and you have, Right. Yes. like, undergarment that Taylor Swift swear that that know, you know, keeps your back straight and all that Oh yes. Yes that's right as a reminder. So if we do take that into account and there's a lot of studies that look at literally look at how people sit during the day, females in particular are we tend to sit in the front one third of the chair and look forward into the screen. Males will sit back with a much more casual posture and you know, the the legs crossed, etc. so when we're looking at seating, we make that assumption that males and females will be using it and it'll support both. Okay. Interesting. This is fun, Yeah. how do men and women differ in how they sit at a desk? Let's say. Yeah. So guys well, there was an article in, one of the Canadian newspapers, probably 2 or 3 years ago about man sitting or manspreading. So this was an argument about, you know, men on the subway systems and the busses, way more casual, but they take up a lot more room because of their postures. Women tended to sort of shrink in size, sit on the front one third of the chair, don't use the armrest. So some of that is the design to account for that. But at the same time, a lot of it is about training. So a lot of companies will purchase seating, furniture, etc., but then not provide any training and hands on education. What we find is when we educate people about why we're telling them to sit and work a certain way, then we tell them how when we follow them up three, six, nine, 12 months later, their behaviors remain improved so that they're using the chair better. So account for the differences between men and women in a work style, but at the same time have them educated and trained as well. Now, would you go into, say, I don't know how long, how young you'd go to middle school? Let's say middle school starting and start, you know, training the kids how to sit properly, Absolutely. So when you look at kids because they're using these, they're not supposed to in the classroom, but, but they are or they're using laptops. Some teachers are not allowing laptops in the classroom anymore, which is good because cursive writing actually creates better memories than if we use electronic. So, kids will often curl one leg underneath. And if you look at furniture in the classroom, I mean, it's horrible. There's no ergonomic design, there's no lumbar support, there's no armrests, etc.. So we're asking the human body, which is not linear, to sit in a linear chair behind a desk that's one size. So if I'm a shorter student at that time, I'm going to learn to sit on my leg and then wonder why I have knee pain, or ask them to sit for long periods of time. Stop moving Jane. Stop fidgeting. Although fidgeting is good for you, but often. And so now I'm loading the discs in my spine. So starting early is is really critical, especially because of the use of tablets and and laptops and phones, etc.. But it's it's not taught. And yet teachers could start at the, at the beginning of each school year and just teach some of the basics. Yeah. Yeah. I like the idea of that. Why is fidgeting good? I like that. I'm a fidgety. Yep. Fidgeting is dynamic movement. So I we encourage people. So we make an assumption often oh, if someone's not staying perfectly still they're not listening. Well, if you look at kids that, you know, grade one, two and three and they're all over the place, but then you ask them a question of something they were taught, and right away they have the answer. They're moving and movement, actually, again, create good memories that that move from short term into a longer term memory that stays there. So I encourage adults when they're in the office and working, especially let's say, if they're in capital markets or they're in a security type of, of set up where they're really having to look at data, if they can't stand up, I want them moving. I want them shifting. I want them to just quickly do a little release off of the spine. So dynamic movement is good mentally but also physically. Circulation. Synovial fluid into the joints. So fidgeting is actually good. And we encourage it. Oh. Very nice. Oh, good. Well, think my my daughter's first grade, and, you know, and she's constantly moving, so there we go. It's a good thing. Oh yeah. Absolutely. And in fact right after learning something, then hopefully they've got recess, but then that they're all moving and encouraged to move. Because then they process what they, what just happened. And the movement actually helps them to store those memories in a better way and improves their recall. So we need kids moving a lot more, especially right after, you know, let's say it's a 30 minute lesson. Okay, let's get up. Let's move around and then have them sit again. Oh, that's very good to know. Yes. Yep. Really important. one of the questions. So I sometimes I go to the internet and I say, what does the internet want to know about ergonomics and, you know, one of them was like, what is ergonomics? And I don't know if you can pinpoint ergonomics. not really. I mean, there is a standardized definition about, you know, design and designing for humans. But really the way that we defined it in a way that, that we continue to practice, is that it? It you design the tools, the equipment, the seating, all of those things. First with good design based on humans, both the anthropometric, physiological data, mental, mental data as well. And then you bring the human in and you train the human to use all of those things properly. So it's about improving comfort. It should improve. So when we worked in the auto sector and even in the pharmaceutical sector, we had to prove to the design engineers that there would be a return on the investment, which was great. It forced us to make a business case for the ergonomics. So there should be a measurable improvement in someone's productivity. How often? Something that was manufactured had to be torn apart and started over again. And so there's both mental psychological, physical, but also that productivity, is enhanced. The other question is, how do I prevent pain and improve comfort, especially in office and computer heavy environments? I picked that one because that relates to us. Yeah, absolutely it does. And you and your, you know, many of your clients like you talked about multiple screens. Right. And having to be really focused. Often people become so focused that they don't move around. And so pain starts to occur. The benefit of having the ability to move the workstation in such a high range, in, in, in in your furniture, for example, is that you we can get people out of sitting and we can get them standing. And when standing again, we get them to fidget. We get them to put a foot on to a foot rest and alter their posture. So ergonomics is also about movement. With movement, comfort is improved. So the human body becomes uncomfortable and over time injured with the lack of movement. So the literature, for example, for people with osteoarthritis now is keep moving. Oh, but I have arthritis in my joints I know keep moving. So if you build that into the design of workstations and the monitors can be moved fore and aft and at different heights, etc., you're creating that movement, coupled with a chair that is well suited to that environment. So that that's how you enhance comfort, create movement in the workplace. standing pads, like I have one in my kitchen with those. Those are nice, too. Or they. It's a good addition. One sometimes we we won't recommend them when someone has a height adjustable workstation only because the time it takes to move that out of the way, put the chair back and then sit the guidance that we give people based on the standards about the human spine, that being there, and the circulatory system is that we don't want people to stand for more than 30 minutes at a time. The reason being, the minute someone stands up their feet or that much further away from the heart. So the cardiovascular system is working harder. Up to 30 minutes, no problem. When you sit, the problem becomes static loading of the spine and and circulation being compromised. So in fact we want to create that. So the anti fatigue mat isn't really as helpful in the kitchen that you've described. You may be standing there statically for longer than 30 minutes. You know washing dishes preparing food. In which case having that anti fatigue mat does help. So there are cases where we'll recommend it. But it depends on how they're using the the equipment. Goodness. This is fascinating. I Yeah there's lots to consider. I mean, from how you move to, you know, and, and and you must just see kind of violations of ergonomics all around you. You say that's the next you know, thing Yeah. There's the next thing. And sometimes when we do a follow up study, if we've delivered some education and training, they've got all new furniture, seating etc. then we come in and train. We then follow up at three, six, nine and 12 months. Sometimes people will apologize and said, oh my gosh, I was crossing my legs. Not and not to ask them, well, how long were you doing that? Well, you told us that we can still do it, but not for as long. And that's what I'm doing. Then fine. I don't want you to have perfect posture. I want you to be moving. Okay? You cross your legs for 15 seconds. That's okay. But you're always going back to that sort of neutral zone as often as you can. When you catch yourself, then that's good. That's that's excellent. when you entered ergonomics, is there, like, a something that you didn't expect, you know, coming out of it or, you know. That's a good question. I think, you know, there's there's good things and not so good things that, that come out of, the are ergonomics. One thing is and someone, someone who has an MBA actually said, Jane, you and your team have mini MBAs because you're going in in one type of industry, you know, and it's manufacturing, and then there's pharmaceuticals, and then you're running down to RBC or one of the banks. And in fact, we also work with a company where they have multiple screens and they're looking at, stores, retail with diamonds, where diamonds are being sold. So they had to look at all this data. So I think, I think the biggest thing is seeing how mentally demanding work is, that it's not just about the physical demands. So especially when people are, you know, capital markets as prime example or, security where there's multiple screens, one of the things that I found most fascinating is how something out of the corner of the eye on a, on a screen were picked up by people, even with Nav Canada, as they're bringing in a plane. And there's something that that just mentally, triggered something. So having them being alert and moving and being in comfortable positions allowed them to pick up those nuances. And I think the other thing with ergonomics is how much, how much, knowing that there's a return on investment is a really critical part of what we need to bring to the marketplace that people need to. Now, a lot of people will say it's an office. How do you measure productivity? Well, most managers, when they assign a task, know how long a project should take, and does it have to then go back and be reworked. So we call that rework rates. Are you seeing more errors out of employees? So it's not just comfort, discomfort, etc. it's we can measure it. So let's measure it and let's see okay. You're going to spend $100,000 upgrading your furniture so that it's fully adjustable. Okay. Let's do the return on investment. And when you choose those critical things I think that's that's something that was really important, and important to us in terms of our discipline as you're going to miss. Wow. Man, this has been fascinating. That's why I'm still doing this. I'm still fascinated by it because there's there's different things all the time and new things to learn, etc.. It's it's a really interesting area. you know, with the the advent of robots doing other jobs, and then there's people to control the robots doing those jobs. And it's just interesting to see the transfer of work really moving. Yes. That's right. And and I always remember finding it very eerie in, it was one of the Toyota plants. And this robot that would bring materials to the line instead of someone on a on a a tow truck, or a, you know, in a truck delivering it, and it would be the robot, and just it was just this eerie quiet. But the way that most industry is now is that you have a robot, and then it's passing the material to a human, and and it might go back to a robot again. So dealing with the humans in between those two are really, that's where ergonomics is a challenge. I mean, I guess this is robotics ergonomics, but I mean there's, there's, there's efficiency of the robot as well of certain movements doing certain things and. That's right. And the wear and tear is different. Right. They may the robot may be able to do 100,000 movements of it. You know, if it's like a shoulder joint in the robot, whereas a human, if they do that with a load and it not good position will break down. And that's often where the decision is. Okay. Should we just automate this because, you know, we're losing all these people to injury in this area. Yeah. And it's kind of like, you know, how, American football is a little bit being phased out now with flag football, right? Yes, yes. Which is great to see. yeah. You're removing that danger. So, you know, it's like okay, so maybe certain jobs are disappearing, but the danger is being Correct. Because human humans can add value in in areas where quality control is needed. I need your eyes on this. Oh, I didn't even notice in the paint shop that that that wasn't actually exactly as it should be. So humans are good at certain things. Small manipulations. Robot robotics will get better at this, but being able to touch and feel, be able to look and inspect all of those things. So there are two very specific roles where humans are better 5 to 10 years from now. That might not be the case, but, there's definitely rules for, for humans where we're really good at doing certain things. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just, you know, of course, there's AI coming in to be able to make certain decisions and stuff like that. How good is AI going to be? We don't know yet. You know, kind of thing. Yeah. So if you talk to the founder of AI or the The Godfather who won, a Nobel Prize, you know, he's he's saying 5 to 20 years, they can think on their own. And then the law must be like a subspecies onto their own. It's interesting to read that and understand AI and what it can become. In the right hands. Then it'll be a good adjunct to, to humans and work well together. We'll get more more done perhaps or something Yes. Yeah. Productivity. Right. And there will still be room for artists I think, you know, like human artists and, and human deaths and human that but you know, will. Think of the beat of baseball. Go Jays go. By the way. So they're talking about replacing the umpire at the back to my mind. And perhaps I would be labeled as a Luddite that, you know, old fashioned. I like when a human error occurs in the game, it becomes part of the game. People argue about it. They might, you know, review it again, but it's the human errors that are important. So if you remove the umpire, then why don't we replace all of the players who also make mistakes? Why don't we replace them all with robots that have AI capability? I mean, the argument is there's the human part of this, which is important, as you say, in the arts and dance and music etc.. That that the mistakes that are made to is human. If we automate too much, then there'll be something lost in that. it's monotonous, you know? Everything. Every. Every piano piece will be played perfectly. Exactly the same. That's right. No inflections, no accents. And yet, good jazz pianists make mistakes all the time, but we don't realize it. They're able to riff and do do things or singers that don't quite hit the note. and it creates something new, Absolute. Yes. The iterations occur through errors. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. So, I don't know, just all these things. I guess I should probably do more reading on on AI and what, you know, where it can go. And, and so because, you know, we talk about, oh no, how is I going to, you know, take over my daily life kind of thing. And it's a little bit scary, Absolutely. For lots of people, it's it's really frightening. So one of the best writers is Yuval Harari. And he wrote he has a recent book and it's about AI, but he explains the history of information and how I, he also defined what AI is because a lot of people are throwing it out there and they they don't understand the actual, term itself. But he gives the history of information over, over time. And then arriving at this point in terms of it can be a great thing if it's in the hands of not the right people, then it's obviously going to be a tool to, to wreak havoc. So that would just like anything. It's like gossip. Yeah, exactly. It can be fun and exactly. for? You know, Yes. That's right. But, you know, it's like, is like ergonomics going to be impacted by. I. I'm not I'm not sure. You know, it's like how to understand. over time, we we should assume that most jobs. Now I'm also a physiotherapist, and I'd. I'd hate to think that you would come in to see me as a patient, and I would just switch on my little robot and it would detect, oh, there's muscle, there's muscle tightness over here. I will do A, B and C. I've been a physiotherapist for so long that when I see patients, I'm actually doing the, the the silly calculations. Obviously not as important as his, but there's all this stuff and experience and hands that know how to feel things, etc. that I'm hoping machines would never learn. Plus the fact that I don't want a machine to be touching me. The human to human touch is so critical. And we can't remove that from many jobs. Right. Yeah. You know, we as a company, we're saying, you know, I mean, there's a whole thing of, you know, people get the importance, not the importance, but just the meaningfulness of people coming back to the office and, you know, getting the monitors out of the way, seeing each other, reconnecting, you know, and what that generates. And you don't you can't know what generates. You never know what's going to say. You never know what's coming around the corner. That's the magic of life. That's right. Those happy accidents, two people bump together, and when they're getting their coffee from two different departments and they're saying, oh, I've got this problem. Oh, okay, here's an innovative way to look at it. And then and you're right, dropping the screens down so you can visually see people not just, you know, hey, how are you doing? And then it's just auditory. And not everyone has enough sight to be able to do that. So yeah, drop the screens, have that interaction, have those happy accidents occur for sure. Yeah. Oh, well, it's been really fun to talk to you. Yeah. This has been good. Great questions. It's it helps me, you know, sort of review my, you know, the last 35 or so years as well because there's, you know, there's interesting industries and things that we've seen that you just think, wow, whoever would have would have thought that that that happens in the workplace and are some workplaces, you go in and you think, oh my gosh, how the heck do they ever get that product off the line? Where there's just so many things getting in the way of letting people just do their jobs and do it really well. Well, we will, obviously continue moving forward, you know, and, you know, analyzing designs with you. And I really hope that people pick up, you know, realize that, bringing people like you into projects and into just how the company functions, you know, to make sure that, hey, is this an environment where people are comfortable and it's, allowing for maximum productivity or, you know, optimal productivity. Yeah, absolutely. And like. Like I said early on, Savannah, it's rare for a furniture company to approach us right at the beginning and say, hey, what are the standards? What do we need to put in place? And then the engineering component design, take it. And it's like, here's how, here's how we can get there. And the iterative design is also unusual. Oh, it's ergonomically designed. That's fine. We don't need to do anymore. I mean it's been it's been changing over the last several years with your with the designs and it shows and there would be excellent feedback from the end users who are most important at the end of the day. Yeah. Thank you. Well, it's, It's, you know, we look with the companies, always look to what are what are the parameters really of of of a project, you know, and then look at what are the parameters of the, of the user, you know, focusing on the user and, you know, continually looking to say how much more friendly can our desks get. That's right. And that user that's forgotten, but not in your designs is the I.T that have to crawl into space and reach. And hopefully their large hands can fit in a small space. The maintenance person, the people putting the units together and installing it all the way to the person that's going to clean the units, you know, late at night, etc. all those are factored in and that's also rare in design. You should. They only think of the person that's going to be in front of the computer screens and doing the work. Not all of the other people that interact with the with the furniture and the technology, that's rare. Well, that's. That's nice to hear. So we're we're we're we're on a tangent then that that really, you know, services our clients. Well so and it's you know getting that word out there. And now it's really just focusing on training the, all the people who come into contact on how to use it That's right. and then also maintaining like a resource so that they can people realize, hey, you know, you gotta whoever news coming on that you have to learn how to do this for your own. Yeah. Absolutely. So when we do any training, we want as many people as possible in, in that group because we want them to then become the internal experts so that you shouldn't have to call us in. No, we've got this. We have an ergonomic committee. George is going to now, invest time and do some training with this new employee. So leaving resources behind is the sign of a good consulting firm. Well, this has been fantastic. Thank you again, Jen. Yeah. No, it's been a pleasure. It's been sort of a trip down memory lane. Yeah. And just, getting to know you a little bit more to I to. I like doing these podcasts. It's just I get to talk with people a little bit more and step outside of just what, what's the task that we have at hand here. So, yeah, it's been a pleasure. Yeah. And in a comfortable environment as well where people feel like, oh, yeah, we can we can just talk about this and let's make it, as opposed to like a lecture, you know, this is ergonomics. This is how to do it. Yes. Yeah. No, it's it's a great. Well, and even that, it's how I read. I'll retain more information too. Absolutely. That's right. watching or listening Yes. all this to and and apply it and and remember you guys. So what's that your your website where they can find you or what's the best way to find your website. Is optimal performance okay. And I've we also have a stronger presence in LinkedIn where I'm often writing articles and, and putting posts in there. So that's, that's actually a good place as well. And is that under under OPC or is that under you? It's under OPC Optimal Performance consultant. And then there's one under Jane's sleeve. So I have the two pages. And then they communicate with one another. But I often will post. Yeah.