How Podcasting Builds Trust for Design and Workplace Brands | Workspace Design Lab Ep. 8

What happens when your worst gig becomes the spark that launches a global podcast business?

In this episode of Workspace Design Lab, Syl Vander Park sits down with David O Gara, founder of APodcastGeek, to explore how a career in radio, live DJing, and a single traumatic christening gig evolved into a thriving remote company built around trust, sound, and storytelling. Broadcasting from his garden studio in Dublin, David shares how he built his podcast production business from scratch during the pandemic and why workspace design still matters in a remote-first world. They dive into gear setups, team growth, the future of podcasting, and why long-term vision always trumps instant success.

Whether you're an architect, interior designer, or creative entrepreneur, this episode will inspire you to think differently about design, storytelling, and how spaces shape the work we do.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:
• From radio and DJing to podcast production, David’s creative evolution
• Why he built his studio in a garden shed
• Remote company structure and team communication setup
• Ergonomic work setups that support long hours and creative flow
• The ROI of anti-fatigue mats and dual workstations
• Why podcasts work better when intention comes before monetization
• Dublin’s growing podcast studio boom
• Why authenticity matters more than ever in a “trust recession”
• David’s advice for anyone launching a podcast
• The value of real, human connection in the digital age

BEST MOMENTS:

00:02:47. “The first gig I ever did was the worst. I got assaulted by a bouncer at a christening.”
00:04:34. “We’re a remote company. I designed my workspace around easy, comfortable communication.”
00:05:55. “That anti-fatigue mat? Bought it for DJing. Still using it at my standing desk.”
00:08:22. “I molded this business around my 9 to 5. It was a 5 to 8, 1 to 2, and 8 to 9 hustle.”
00:13:04. “Do it for the right reasons. The worst question is, ‘How do I monetize this?’”
00:16:17. “Instant gratification does not come from podcasting. It’s all about long-term trust.”
00:18:10. “When someone Googles you, a podcast can build immediate trust if it shows up.”
00:22:10. “That blew me away. Fatman Scoop invited me backstage. I met all my music heroes.”

🔗 Explore NovaLink’s product and process for effortless workspace design.

Workspace Design Lab | Healthy Spaces, Lasting Impact

📅 New episodes release every 2nd Thursday at 6 AM ET / GMT-4.

Join host Syl VanderPark as we explore ergonomic office design, modern interiors, and sustainable workspace solutions with architects, designers, and industry leaders.

Watch and subscribe on YouTube.

💡 If this conversation helped you reimagine what a workspace can be, share it with a colleague or client. Together we can design offices that support wellbeing, productivity, and lasting impact.

Produced by APodcastGeek

Transcript

0:00

The in my back is to make sure that I provide to the family. And I'm showing up and I'm pushing this thing forward, not just for me, but for everybody that works with us. And that's the big goal. Here is a plan B does definitely not exist in my mind. So it's definitely all about age. Some people might call a crazy, but it's all I've ever known. It's just one focus at a time. Welcome to Workspace Design Lab, the show where architects, interior designers and workplace leaders explore the future of workspace interiors. Each week we dove into ergonomic office design, modern workspace trends and sustainable furniture solutions that improve wellbeing and performance. I'm Silvana Vander PARC, and together we will uncover the stories, strategies and innovations that help you design offices that truly work. Let's dove in. David, how did you get into podcasting? We'll start from there. Where I started was from my production background, so I was working in radio all since I was like 16, and I've always had an interest in production on how people actually do the technical side of things recording and producing commercials and really just being the tech guy. That was me. My affinity for music kind of led me into radio and in turn that made me fall into DJing and that was my little ecosystem since I was a teenager. And so from radio then, my interest grew into podcasting. That was like a natural progression just out of a personal interest first and then became something that I knew I could do for other people. And then I just started to do that and from a freelancing basis started doing so. And then it became a case of where I need to delegate to a team on a quickly grew during the pandemic too a case of a lot more demand and we had to meet that demand. So to do that I had to delegate to more people, become as best a manager as I can be and help really grow a company from this. And that's what it's been. So it's from freelancer to business owner on. It's been a tornado. So now we're a team of like ten plus people started with me and that's where the journey really came from. I just started from radio. An interest in music, really. So you got into radio, you were deejaying on the radio or you were deejaying on the side at parties or both? Yeah. So it was me I was doing the live events. I wasn't on the radio station because my voice would be too country for a lot of the radio stations that I was working for, so it wouldn't be perfect for their audience, right? So I was accepting of that. That's all good. I was always about the music anyway, so I never saw myself as someone being behind the mic in a radio station, more so helping with the productions. The deejaying was in live events, the bars, the nightclubs, the birthday parties, kid's birthday parties, christenings, you name it. I've done it. And yeah, I've had a long career of it and it was a lot of fun. What age did you start? I started 16. Yep. Industrious. Right from. Right from the get go. Yeah. You know, it's the first time I did my first gig was actually the worst gig I've ever done. And that was good because it was a baptism of fire. It was like, Oh, you're starting at the bottom. Only way is up. So it was actually it was a christening and it was for a bouncer of a local nightclub. And let's just say he was having more than alcohol that night. I didn't know it. I knew nothing about it. This guy's activity was a bit strange compared to everybody else. You know, you're at a christening. You have a bit of decorum, right? This guy? Absolutely not on. I knew that there was something off about him. Yeah. And it actually ended up in an assault. He assaulted me at the end of the night, and I was I was under I was a minor, you know, and I was like, I wasn't expecting this at all. I was it was my first gig, and I was literally playing to kids, playing with balloons. And he said he wasn't happy with my performance. So from that crushing experience, I've risen from the ashes. And after then it was just me dusting myself off and going, Okay, so I'm sure there's better experiences out there. And there was, thank goodness, yeah, you couldn't go anywhere but up after that, what did he want you to play? He wanted you to play more raving music or. Wow. So really strange. But he wanted me to play sexually explicit music. Oh, I once again, Chris. Oh, there's so much this one with the reason I knew the story was going to have a dark turn. And sadly, that's the truth. And that's what he wanted. And he wanted me to play a certain few songs on repeat, and I wouldn't do it. This kid's pressed, I'm not going to be inappropriate and it just happened to trigger him. And yet the rest happened. That's another story. I guess so, yeah. You know, Dave promised there's a box full of them, but that's probably one of the earlier ones. Yeah. So, you know, this whole podcast is to talk about workplace design. As I've been going through some of these interviews, it's also about the philosophy of the workplace in addition to your actual bricks and mortar and how you set everything up and all that kind of stuff. So there's a lot of different avenues we can go down here. But I think what's interesting is the you know, we were talking on the side a week ago or so about podcasts are still really an emerging genre and it's only going to get bigger. So that's very exciting. What do you have as a setup? How would you say how would you describe your setup for what I do here based in Dublin, Lucan, Ireland? And what we are essentially is a remote company. So I am a founder working with people remotely. So a lot of my purpose in the sense of the workspace I've set up here is for communication, easy communication, so I can communicate with the team and I can do so in a comfortable way. I have two set ups right now, just a normal desk, and it is a leather office chair. I have carpet, I have a screen to the right of me and that's my remote setup. When I am communicating with the team, my secondary setup is a standing desk with a anti fatigue mat with a large screen on it, with a light on it as well. I prefer standing. I just it is a job that again, communication being a large part of it, but it is a kind of tech job. I'm looking at screens all day, so I do prefer to be standing and this anti fatigue might helps me do so without the issue of pains in the feet, etc. I bought it for like €50 many, many years ago actually for DJing. Coincidentally, with some parties we go on for longer and I've since used it in the office and it's been a great addition. And then standing desk I bought an electric standing desk for the inefficiency where it was that it wasn't powerful enough to lift all of the tech that I have on the desk. So what I've done is I've actually just placed it at the highest setting on this plug that I left. So it's a it's a static standing desk. It's been working great. I have lights going on to the screen helping against that layer. I have my audio device there, everything I need. But I bounce back and forth between a sitting setup and a stunning set up, and it suits me perfectly. Yeah, I've seen that. I've seen people have a standing set up that's consistent. But yeah, you just need that space to do that. And then working remotely with your people, I mean, when did you start to grow? You said the pandemic. So you would have branched out and taken on people during the pandemic. Yeah. So it started with one of my team members is still with me and since then and congratulations. Yeah I'm so it's one of the most humbling things to have people stick around. It's like I'm really humbled by that. And then it developed into more. So it became Ed after Ed doing the task of looking after clients that I've taken on and you know, following the SOPs, etc. and they were the biggest amount of hires that I've had. I probably did about 4 to 5 hires during the pandemic that were all EDS. And then after that, then I moved into delegating management quality assurance. And then at the end, only lately, actually in the last year, hiring an executive assistant. So that's kind of been the role mapped out have had with hiring. But from a logistics perspective I needed to take care of the deliverability side of the business because as we grew getting more clients on and I'm sure you aware everyone and their granny wanted to start a podcast during the pandemic, so we had to accommodate that, meet that demand and have more editors on the team to be able to do that. Reflecting back, it was a crazy time. I was working full time with a radio position while doing this, so this was my 5 to 8 and then it was a like 1 to 2 and then also like 8 to 9 job while I did my 9 to 5. So I molded this around working a 9 to 5 when I was starting growing the company. Is it the push of work or do you just really love it? Oh wow. I always wanted to do something, branched out to do something of my own. But the skill set was so natural to me after all the experience I've had and I personally am obsessed with podcast. So it was built out of passion for sure, but it's just solving that need for everyone else around, that passion that follows the same passion too. So yeah, it meets both worlds in the sense then. Oh it's cool. Well you were just talking about your set up and the weight of it because that's always interesting about how many monitors are you talking about? What are all the equipment that is that you've got piled up on your standing desk? Sure. So I've got a 32 inch Dell monitor, curved one. I've got 2 a.m. audio. They are active monitors on both sides. I've got a broadcaster, pro two audio device there as well. I've got my M1 Mac Mini, which I swear by all of those things. I've got an 8 a.m. mini easel, which is essentially a video switcher for four cameras, etcetera. I've got headphones, I've got hard drives, many hard drives, a filing cabinet, essentially for all the business that is kind of the. Oh yeah. Webcam as well obviously. Yeah. And that's kind of benefits for my daughter. So that's, that's kind of it. So yeah, it's the full package most of the way is the monitor, to be quite honest with you, that the table couldn't take because it has a stand and it's kind of those curved monitors are quite, quite heavy. It's true. Do you ever see yourself going into in your dream of dreams, would you want to go every pull everybody into if it's possible? Because you could be very remotely, you know, hiring and stuff like that. But assuming that people are in the Dublin area or the majority would you create, you know, like a headquarters kind of thing? Yeah, for sure. This is definitely a goal of mine. We've been fully remote since I started, but we have had inquiries, people finding us on Google Maps saying, Hey, how much is it for an hour at your studio? And I've been turning people away because we just don't have the capacity for it right now with what I'm doing with the company board, this space is primed for it. So the more I think about it, the more I am considering it to set this up as our podcasting space where people could use on a regular basis. Now, this is my studio, by the way, is at the back of my home. We have a very small garden. You walk through a side entrance, it's totally accessible, but it is primed for something like that. And I do see in the future that we would do this because there's so much technology in this one space. So it would be a shame not to. Yeah, I can imagine that would be very exciting and kind of just imagine what the experience would be walking in. There's a place that set up here, I'll send you the link to it after so you can see it. But there's a whole kind of media thing like that here in DC area that you can rent spaces to do podcasting and stuff like that, and they've also got things going on there. So anyway, it's interesting. Yeah, for sure. There's a lot of them happening in Dublin as well. I seems every week I'm getting a post about Hey, New Studio opened up for social media content and podcasting content. I just shows you what's happening and the way the market is moving, that people are developing these spaces and putting money behind these projects to enable people to do that versus recording in their office or whatever. So it's really interesting. But clearly business that's taking off, you know, that's interesting. Is it a Dublin thing, do you think, or like is there epicenter of podcast kind of studios or still developing? We still developing for sure. If I was to put a number on it, I don't know, maybe 20 last year, we have much more than that now. I would say we have about 30 plus now options in Dublin if not more. So it is definitely booming. But yeah, before we our member looking into it, having limited options to offer people that are coming over and now there's a lot to choose from and a lot of spaces. Yeah, that's fascinating. Actually, I haven't seen it explode here yet, so I thought I should get into the business and setup. I was looking at one property and I thought, just put some studios in there for people to do it and see what happens. But this place in DC opened up, so probably lets people just go use that one. People have options, you know, that's it. So if something's booked out, people are going to look for alternative options. So you never know. You never know, you never know. We can do a branch over here of your company. So we're going to offering the Irish over here. Yes. Okay. Shamrock above the door. Guess who's here. Yeah, that's awesome. You know, I'm born on a St Patrick's Day, so I feel like an honorary Irish person too. So I'll take it now. There you go. I can't believe it. Wow. Look, Marcus, I am like, if you were to give advice on somebody setting up a podcast right now, what would you tell them? Do it for the right reasons. It's what's the intention? What are you trying to achieve with it? You know, a lot of people that I have conversations with so much actually is so how do I monetize this thing? And that's probably the worst question to ask in the beginning because you've know community and who you're talking to and what what what are you trying to do outside of money? Is it more so providing value to people? Are you looking to educate people? Are you looking to inspire people? Develop a community? What's that goal first and then look into that as the primary reason for moving forward. The money side, things happens much later. You kind of course develop digital products and develop a community and gated content. There's a lot of ways to make money, but it shouldn't be the only reason why you want to start a podcast. It should be able to add value to the market because if it's not adding value to the market, it's just going to disappear as noise and it won't be picked up by the people you're really trying to affect. So that's important. It's just intention. I want you have the right intentions in mind. Then you will find the process be so much more seamless and make a lot more sense for you. And then if people come to you, you help them along. You know how we it is defining what the goals are, what the content is going to be. I think the a really fun aspect is just had the analytics come back and say, hey, you know, what's, what's working and how can we improve? The most successful podcasts are going to have people with maybe journalistic backgrounds or some kind of production backgrounds. I'm very unpolished. I haven't taken any courses or anything like that, but I have found an online one, so you just never know. There's always room for improvement and everything is there a trend of what I know there's the Mr. Beast, which I think that is that's just that's games and gifts or a kind of rewards kind of thing. But in terms of content, what are the successful podcasts? What other successful podcasts? The top five in the world. They always rotate. It's Joe Rogan, Mel Robbins, Chris Williamson. Like all the big names, but they're kind of dominating for the reason that they've been doing this for a long time, and they're repeating what they're doing for a long time, talking to bigger and bigger, you know, C listers, B listers, even A-listers as well. So you're bringing along huge profiles after being established for so long and you're really getting an audience of thousands, tens of thousands. Every time you records, that compounds over time. That's what they are doing is just being consistent on their intention is quite clear. They're like Joe Rogan. He just wants to have interesting conversations with interesting people. That is his value proposition and he has stuck to his guns from episode one. Chris Williamson Quite similar. Matt Robbins Quite similar as well, but it's all about what the reason is and they've just followed that reason in every episode and from there just gotten bigger guests, more interesting topics that are more relevant and trending. And it's funny. Success leaves clues a lot of these people on. It's very humbling to know this as well is that there's nothing special about these people. They just have gotten a plan in mind and stuck to it. And literally that is the key. And it's like anything in life, you know, you've got to be consistent. But once you've the right intention behind it, that is a huge plus for podcasting. You need a very long term view. You have to have that consideration of you contributing to the market long term for an effect. Long term, it's like hiring somebody from SEO for a website. You may not see something for 6 to 9 months, maybe even a year before things start to take effect. The same as a podcasting. You know, 1% of people take off within the first month. It's an outlier. You have to be considerate of it being a longer term play for sure at the instant gratification does not come from podcasting. Aside from the fact that you're putting your face out there and you're brave enough to do that, and hats off to you for that transformation. But for everything else, if you're looking for a legion or support for the business, etc., these things do take time. So similar to social media content as well. Things don't just happen overnight. It's very much a compounding thing and if you stick to it, it will pay off. And that's the whole thing is organic, just takes time. But if you're consistent with what you do and it compounds, it's interesting. You've got to have the patience and the will to kind of see things through with that original vision. You know, like in in our furniture business, you kind of want to see automatic success. The sales are coming in. It's going crazy. But a lot of times it just takes a while to get that message out and for people to see it. And you're right, whenever you've got that vision, don't let it go. Absolutely. It's a comment on where we're at in society right now as well. I don't know if you've heard of this term, the trust recession we're currently in because of the rise of AI and deepfakes and authenticity. They're being very questionable right now online for people. Is it, you know, 20 LinkedIn posts made after a couple of catchy beauty prompts? It's interesting because people are now looking for authenticity and trust. And with podcasting that can be achieved because you're having real conversations as real people. That's where 95% of podcast there are elements of podcasting being automated too, but nobody's listening to those. Thank God. Because of this, you're able to help yourself as well. Shorten sales cycles and because of the trust you're building to over time. When someone is looking to make an investment with someone and the first thing they will do, search a name. And if a podcast is one of those search terms that come up in your Google search, that's the goal. They will come in on consumer content, get an idea of your personality, your frameworks, your mindset, and get an idea of who you are, how trustworthy you are, and if you're the expert that they're looking for, and that's what this serves as well. I read somewhere recently that it can be for like a high ticket offer. It can be up to like 70 days, I believe, for people to gain trust with someone online, that's longer than it's ever been. And this is largely due to the trust recession that we have right now, which is really interesting, because people are taking longer to trust people and make investments than they ever have due to technology, etc., being so helpful to us. But it's hindered the element of trust with real human connection, which is why podcasting stands out long term. Now of course I'm biased, but it is interesting to see that as society, it's just where we're going. I guess if there's an analogy here, it's when we would put together a proposal or a catalog. We would always put together a sample desk, take a photograph of that sample desk, and then what you'd see is the actual thing. Then rendering came about and that started to replace because it's cheaper, it's faster, but it replaced sometimes even physical sample desks and showrooms and stuff like that. And that didn't really pan out. People want to see the real thing and they want to come to kick the tires and make sure it's real. So we've had people come to the show and we think, gosh, the investment in the showroom is a lie. You kind of don't want to do it, but, you know, they come and they go, okay, you're real. They see the factory. It's real. You know, this furniture works. You know, it's not just some kind of video game showing monitors going up and down and back and forth and stuff like that. So I am relieved to hear that the I like we don't have characters doing podcast shows that are like number one, it's the real deal. Yeah, you mentioned adopt and I mentioned earlier that varies all the time, but it will never in my opinion be a generated person or people. It's just not how we want to connect again. It's about human connection and being a fly in the wall for a really interesting conversation. If it's generated by a computer, it's just a very different approach and it just doesn't hit in the same way. Again, trust can you try you can you just something like that. You know what has been your greatest deejaying moment, fat man scoop I'm sure you've heard of Fat Mess. So I made a mix online years ago and he sent me a video message, but he had his camera facing the ceiling, so I thought it was like a fake account doing a prank thing. But I was in radio at the time and I stepped out to listen to it and he was addressing me and saying how dope he thought my mix was because I had included one of his songs in it, and he said that he loved to talk more with me on it. So I talked to him, which was very surreal for me. I had Fatman Scoop Be Faithful vinyl on my wall at that time at home and I was I couldn't believe. It's very surreal, lovely guy, God rest his soul. And he said to me that when he comes into Dublin next, he'd love to link up. Years later, I was working at a Dublin radio station that was right beside one of the biggest venues in Dublin, which is called The Three Arena. And he I saw a post online saying that he was playing and I messaged to my is that I'm just a long shot I said hey scoop as he wanted me to call him hey scoop. I'm working around the corner from the venue. I've just learned that you guys are playing tonight. I'd love to meet up with you. And he said, Oh man, come through, come through 100%. So we sent a guy around to pick me up. I was in. I said, So you've been working with Simon School for long? And I said, Yeah, I'm his tour manager and he introduced me to everybody backstage. Everybody backstage was all the noughties artists that I grew up listening and drooling over. Mya It was Eve we had we do. We actually have. We had Robin s we had that band the day that we got 21 seconds to go. So saw the crew and yeah, Nelly and I met them all and I was, he just introduced me like I was a normal guy. So I had to play who I was. I was just. Yeah. Hey, guys, nice to meet you. I'm Dave. Nice to meet you. But really, I was freaking out trying to hold it in. So that was a really surreal experience for me. And I got pictures with everybody and he allowed me full access. I was walking around on stage during during soundcheck. I was allowed to be in front of the stage during the show. He was very nice and we talked about doing some shows and then he unfortunately he passed away not so long after that, but his memory lives on and I still play be faithful to play it all the time I as vinyl signed and it was a great story and he invited me into a world that I didn't know I would ever be a part of. And all these people are just normal people like me and you. They're just consistent in their own lane doing their own things. But that blew me away. And that's a story that will always stay with me, with the thing that landed me in that position. That is a gorgeous story. Well, I still have the pictures of my phone. I still go back and watch the videos and I still relive it. I tell my daughter about it. And yes, it's one of those experiences that stuck with me as being probably one of the highlights of my career. I'm not still deejaying. I stopped during the pandemic because obviously there was no business in it and I took up podcast production and that's where I put my energy into at that point. Now, with that said, in my office, as we're talking right now, I still have my technics turntables and my mixer all set up and I still every once in a while, once every maybe two months. So my hop on for 10 minutes, play with my daughter and she enjoys playing with the two. So that's a bit of fun. Recently a come out of my retirement to play one gig, which is for one of my artists that I've always admired, DJ Premier, he's worked with everybody in the hip hop niche. It was great to meet him. I played before him in Belfast and that was a great experience. But the headphones have been pretty much hung up at this point for now. You know, watch this space because things have a way of kind of coming back around and saying, Hey, remember this deejay, let's bring him back and all this kind of good stuff. So there you go. But hey, I've ruled out no more Christmas. No, just I'm not that guy so unruly. I don't care. I'm just not going to do it. Forget it. Oh, my gosh. That is that is pretty crazy. I was going to say, your daughter. How old is your daughter? She's six. Mine's the same age. So I know exactly. She's just discovered somehow, not through me. Taylor Swift. So I was just wondering if are you able to influence her music at this part, or are you playing her music? Oh, I'm definitely influencing. And she likes it. You know, I play a few things to see what the reaction is. And now she's asking Alexa to play bands. I'm not even coaxing her to do what she does in any way and that's beautiful. I'm watching her play Lincoln Power The Cure. She legitimately asks for songs. I'm like one of the biggest fans, and she is too. And it's great. She would want the same in the car as well. Really interesting. In the car she's like, Can we play this song? And I'm like, No, this is radio, honey. This is life. We can't control this. So yeah, it's one of those things. But she does love the music I love, which is great. And obviously she likes Taylor Swift, too. And the latest thing is K-Pop. Yeah, even the dads are getting into that. You see all the tiktoks with the dads singing and yeah, yeah, it's taken the world. But he hasn't forced me to do any of that yet. But I feel like that's the future in front of me, so that's awesome. Yeah, it's been fun talking about the podcast, saying your set up goals, you know where this will go. And I loved what you talked about. Just everybody was normal in that setting, like normal people like you, me, obviously talented, sometimes with better singing voices than others. One thing I had heard, I can't remember who said it, but they said, You don't have a plan B, you only have a plan A, you know, and you just go for it. And sometimes you just you know, I know that in my life I've been like, but I'm interested in this. And interested in that. And I just thought, why can I have been blessed with a single focus? You know, I love that. I love that so much. I have many interests to the body in my back is to make sure that I provide for the family. And I'm showing up and I'm pushing this thing forward, not just for me, but for everybody that works with us. And that's the big goal. Here is a plan B does definitely not exist in my mind. So it's definitely all about A some people might call it crazy, but it's all I've ever known. It's just one focus at a time. Yeah, yeah. Good. It's been really nice talking with you about this and getting some fun stories in there. Was there anything else that you'd want to say that, you know, we're always open to working with new people and interested in working with new people. This is how you contact me kind of thing. Yeah, for sure. So you don't need to always start with help, but it certainly helps progress and accelerate it faster. We've seen everything from people starting on their own and asking for help later or launching with us from scratch. We've helped both, but the main thing is once you start with intention and you see it as long term as you've said, that's really what it's about. If you're in a position as a business where you want something to support your marketing, to shorten sales cycles and to really support your vision as a company, then podcasting is perfect for you. And if that's the case, then go to a podcast gig dot com, have a look there and you'll see there's a link to the discovery call with me and we can talk about it. No obligation. It's just more so seeing if we're a good fit. And that's what it's all about. We don't work with people that may not have the same intentions with the podcast as we'd like. It's all about adding value and really having the right intentions aligned upfront. So that's kind of what we're doing as a company. As we grow and we're developing more and more services to what we do, we're going to do hopefully guest outreach as well as part of our service in 26. So stay tuned for that one, along with so much more as we discuss possibly even a studio here as well. So yeah, if you're considering it, definitely a great avenue look around you on the podcast even that you listen or watch to, they're doing exactly what you may possibly have dreamed of and it's very easy to do. Like I mentioned, anybody can do it. It's just getting started. Seems to be the scariest hurdle. I love that age of self publication. You know that we can do it. We can put ourselves out there. I love listening to how people started up their business, especially if they're under 40 or something like that. When you get those really truthful interviews where you said this was the hardest thing about it, I didn't expect this. I failed in this part and this is how I came back or this is how I grew. From an H.R. perspective, I just love hearing everybody, especially when they are honest about problems that have happened. Oh my God. Because that whole new podcast about me and the problems I've had and it's all part of business, the ups and downs, isn't it? You've got to take the good with the bad. I mean, we've had points where we've lost multiple employees at the same time. We've had a lot of tech issues up and down, and that's part of the journey, though I always say to my operations manager, This train moves forward regardless of what storm hit. Say, you know, it's all about having that y and that bigger vision of now we're doing this for the bigger purpose and amplifying voices out there. So we have to do it and move forward regardless. So you've got to be solution orientated. Tell me about it. Sometimes we've been in the position where it's like, okay, there's some business happening and stuff like that, but to be able to sustain it long term, you're thinking maybe this is going to be maybe we should start thinking about something different. And then all of a sudden you've got clients show up and you're back in business again, full steam ahead. I think you've just got to have your doors open. That's how I look at business. Just do whatever you can to keep those doors open because you never know what's coming around. You really can't start to guess and you just got to you can't give up if that's your thing. You can't give up. We're living by the same code. That is exactly my mantra. It's not giving up on this site either. Cool. Awesome. Well, thank you again for chatting and can't wait to see where all of this goes, both with our podcast and with your podcasting business and see where the industry goes. I like having a long term view to give me a reason to keep on going. You know, it's not like you have to be established now and viral now or something like that. Just establish that long term trust and I love that. So thank you. That's the name of the game. Thanks for checking out workspace design Lab. If you're an architect, interior designer or workplace professional looking to stay ahead in ergonomic office design and modern workspace interiors, make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast platform for more resources on Sustainable Office Furniture and human centered workspace design, visit us at Nova Lincoln until next time.