Why Cash Flow MATTERS in the Workspace Industry ft. Maria and Tony VanderPark | Workspace Design Lab Ep. 11

What happens when a family business refuses to rely on banks, debt, or outside financing, and builds everything on discipline, cash flow, and trust?

In this episode of Workspace Design Lab, host Syl VanderPark sits down with Maria VanderPark, VP and Co-Founder of NovaLink, and Tony VanderPark, President and Co-Founder of NovaLink, to unpack the financial philosophy that shaped more than four decades of business growth. From childhood lessons in Mexico to navigating recessions in Canada, Maria and Tony share why cash flow is the foundation of resilience in the workspace industry and how operating from financial strength transforms leadership, culture, and long term stability. Learn more about NovaLink.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Why “you have to have the cash because you don't want to be dependent on the banks or anybody else”
• How early lessons about money, discipline, and dignity shaped NovaLink’s financial model
• Why NovaLink refused to leverage heavily, even during growth periods
• What really happens when banks “have no mercy” during downturns
• How operating off cash changes relationships with banks, insurers, lawyers, and vendors
• Why paying vendors on time built decades-long trust and loyalty
• The discipline of saving, even when employees resisted it at first
• Why financial independence creates negotiating power and confidence
• How sacrifice during the 2007 recession protected employees and preserved the company
• The role of hard work, compromise, and trust in sustaining a 40 plus year family business

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Transcript

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I remember during the recession and we had sold the business, all the banks on the backs on us, all of them. We didn't sell the business. We sold the factory. That is Maria van der PARC, VP and co-founder of Nvlink, and Toni van der PARC, president and co-founder of Nova Link. After building a company for more than four decades. They learned firsthand what happens when businesses rely too heavily on outside financing. That's why it's why you have to have the cash because you don't want to be dependent on the banks or anybody else. They break down why cash flow is important and how financial independence protects your company. When institutions shift their priorities. And there's a big advantage to operating off of cash. You don't have to do all the reporting. It changes the whole complex of your business. It changes your relationships with insurance companies, with banks, with lawyers, with everything. In this conversation, they share how operating from financial strength, reshapes decision making, strengthens negotiating power, and creates true long term stability. By the end of this conversation, you will understand why discipline, growth and financial independence are the foundation of lasting resilience. I'm Silvana Van Park and this is Workspace Design Lab. It's interesting where I want to go with this is talking about kind of where you came from and how you got to be where you are now. I mean, it was a big jump. Family of ten. Both parents were around. But your mom really played a heavy part in raising boil. My mother was the nourishing type and the learning type always pushed us to go to school, learn and be educated. My father was. That's discipline. We couldn't swear. We couldn't you know, we had to be at home a certain time. We couldn't be out. We couldn't wear well. You could be out. You couldn't be out. Short skirts. Yeah, like short skirts or anything like that. You couldn't wear pants? No, that's right. Yeah. These pants are for men. Yeah. So it was always skirts and but my sister and I, when we were teenagers, we used to have the skirt down below the knee, half the calf. But when we left to go, you know, to the ice cream shop or whatever, we rolled up the the skirt toward the mini skirt that was white. The roll up the roll. Yes. But, you know, at least we were wearing fashion. So, you know, like it was. Right, right. Just from a business standpoint, you know, so, you know, what were the life lessons that you learn? Because it bleeds. It informs how you run the company in Mexico. You didn't do that. You didn't going to debt. You bought the things you had to have the cash. You didn't go into mortgages during go for loans. So it was cash. Yeah, whatever you have. So since I was small, my grandfather was an influence on me because he used to run his candy shop very tight and they were very careful with the money. Right. And as I remember, there weren't banks at that time in the in the town and he used to have the coins and there were silver and gold coins at that time. Right. And the paper money on the paper money were the rainy season used to get more gold. And he used to put the money in when the sun came out outside and brighter well dry the money. So I always looked on the war was counting the money when my my grandmother and they were very prudent. Yeah. So whatever they did there was in cash and it was a cash society back then. Nobody went into mortgages or loans, bank credit cards. No banks were looked upon when they came in just to save money and make make some interest on it. Right. So you got that early experience with was money that way and then your first business experience, let's say? Well, my mother taking after my grandfather had our candy shop and we sold water like flavored waters in the in the market and my mother was a spender. She couldn't have enough money. She liked to buy a lot of food because when we were growing up, we were so poor that we would sometimes wouldn't have had a meal per day. And even even you don't like in the evenings we used to have the sinner. Yeah, it was bread and coffee quality. Or just coffee or tea. Yeah. And I sometimes didn't even have money for coffee or tea properties. So we used to go to the neighbor and they had lampreys and we used to like leaves the meat and we had bread and my sister Ana, she liked to eat a lot and I always felt bad. And we only had two, one sweet bread and one white bread for each of us. So the children and so we were, you know, rationed and mice. And I was always hungry. So I always gave her an extra piece of bread or and but it was it was tough, but we were kids and we had a lot of freedom in the streets. So we didn't feel like we were oppressed. And because there were so many poor people the same as ours, it wouldn't feel bad, right at all. Yeah. And then some of the neighbors kind of helped us out sometimes that gave us some extra milk. Or one lady that we used to clean the theater for gave us a lot of powdered chocolate and all. We loved that. Now I taste like, Oh my God, we like that. But you know, when you a kid. Yeah. And it's something new. So people used to give us little things in there and across the street from across the street from our home, there was a bakery, the local bakery. And the man there always felt sorry for us. And when my mother used to give us some money to go and buy the bread and he looked at us old and I like always went there myself. And he says, Hmm, looked really funny and he didn't say much, but then he would pile on belongings a little extra. Yeah. So he put more bread in the in the bag because we knew we needed it. So that was nice. So it was a real community. So we didn't feel like outcasts. Yeah, we felt hungry. Yeah. You know, as children, something worth pointing out is your family had their home. You had a home? Yeah, my. My grandfather bought a house which he pay $7 back in 19 something. Yeah. And, and the house was divided between my aunt and my mother. So we always had a place to live. And I know we always had. Well, my grandfather died in 1963 on my grandmother lived to be over 100 years old. We don't know because she went through two revolutions and all the paperwork for, you know, the births and everything got burnt. So we really don't know how old she was, but she died of an old age and she was very healthy, but she was always with her cane chasing us because we had my my grandmother had a little or turtle in the back of the house, inside the house, on the back backyard, kind of our backyard and a lot of little fruit trees. But my grandmother wouldn't allow us to have any of that fruit. So that always stuck with me. So when my mother, I was my father, my grandmother passed away and my grandmother looked after my my grandmother for the for making the food on my aunt pay for the food they used to. Each one of us took a turn every day to take food to my grandmother. And I always refused because I know she's a mean person. I'm also. No, she's your grandmother. You got to go and, you know, look after her. And when we went to see her, then a bunch of kids, you know, all the all the kids came around and she'd just say, okay, the cap off because she asked us to light up because cigarets she used to roll the cigarets and with a tobacco was very clean and it's just thick a puff and all the kids to turn thick about to give them a puff. But I didn't like that they saw. I never did. Yeah. And but she was she was quite a character. She had a lot of gold. My grandfather bought a lot of gold earrings and whatever rings and stuff for her. And she has this stash and big, big oracle, as we call them, really rings, you know. And as I remember my grandmother, she she liked to look title herself. She was Indian and my grandfather was Spanish background. And I used to put a lot of cream this Pamela de la Campana and she used to put it, used to rub it and rub it on. Robert Marcus King was smooth as a baby's bump and so in that regard, you know, she was very clean. She was always taking a shower in front of us, naked in the you know, by the pillar where we had the water tank. Yeah. And of kids, you don't, you don't pay attention. It's just it's part of nature and stuff like that. So, you know, she, she was, she was quite a character. Yeah. And I remember when she met your dad and your dad had the long hair and she thought he was a a girl. Cisco, Gina made the transistor. You know, braid your hair. And so, you know, Anthony remembers that. So it was all, you know, family business. My grandmother looked after the money pretty good. My grandfather was very hard working. And so what I can say about Mexico is we are small entrepreneurialism from the kids are sold the Kennedys in the in the in the market or they used to go we used to go in the bosses. And I said our staff in the bus terminal and everybody sell something. And so you learn to look after the money and whatever. And I was a really tight one because my mother used to come around every Sunday when I had I do some good business, I should say, what? Give me the money. And I go, No, what do you need? Well, I need meat. I need, you know. So on Sundays we always had meat because we would eat well in the market. And that was the only day that we've had meat. But she's put a lot of vegetables in the stew and I need me, I need this, I need that. I say, okay, here you go. You have so much you can buy stuff. Now give me all and I said, No. I said, Why not? I said, Because you spend it all. And then during the week we don't have any money to, to buy food. I always think the people, all the town really, because some of them were mean to us. But I mean, this hit me on my pride and I said, Well, I'll show you. You don't put us down. Yeah, I got my pride. I'm poor, but I'm. I'm proud. Yeah. And they used to tell us, well, you know, you, your, your father's a drunk and you're the daughter of a drunk. You end up marrying a drunk. And I said, no, I want no, I want God. My mother used to say, Oh, Don, don't be like that with people because you never know when you're going to need em. And and don't do that because you know you are too proud. I said, Mom, the brightest. The only thing that keeps us going, you know, our dignity. Yeah. And I said, yeah, but you, we might need them. And I said, well, you know, whatever. Well, and, but one of the things on my both of my parents did the still hard work on us. All of us. Yeah. And the some of us are lazy, some of the most hard workers, but we had to fend for ourselves. And one of the advices that I always remember going places, they always said, both of them said, when you go for another house and they invite you, you don't ask for anything they offer. Fine. But you don't ask. You're not a beggar. Yeah. And you always pitch in to help out. Yeah, you can nothing. You can nothing for nothing. So you just they give you something, you offer to do something for that you always pay back. Yeah. And, and, and you always be honest. Yeah. And you don't take a penny and then you just, you know, just remember that. Yeah. Just work hard. Yeah. And there's no money that you want to look after more than what you earn with the sweater. You. You forget. That's what they used to say. Yeah. Fast track. You end up going to college and you eventually through soccer in a way make your way out. You meet dad, you head up to Canada and and then you guys end up starting a business. You know, your shrewdness that came from those early years help you guys to, you know, save up some. You're still helping your family back home in Mexico and and then comes time to the opportunity to to to run the business together and start up the business I kind of want to touch on. This is in Toronto in the eighties. Do you have any experience that you'd share about, let's say, that say being a female, you know, a co-owner as a female, you know, running running a business in the eighties. Is there any insights there? I never thought about myself being a woman. Yeah, business person. I always we saw opportunities with your dad. I was always ready to help you. Dad out in any way that I could, even when he got his first job coming out of come coming out of school and and he was stuff, you know, those years that he went to school and and we had to live in subsidized housing and and the problems that go with it and having two little kids to look after it was tough. But we made it through the problems where we the problem and and and but I never looked at myself like, oh, I'm a woman I want to make it is just you have certain things with within you and you say, I'm going to help Tony. I'm going to help my husband. I want to be behind them. Yeah. And even when he was working for Beauty Line, I always helped him with the outreach. I remember I went to help him to set up three showing in Toronto, and I helped him with paperwork and I was always behind them. I always, always supported them. And I always thought that your dad was really smart and, you know, in in designing and doing things. And he used to work at the factory in Chatham when we first got married. I told him, I said that too smart to work in the factory. So you as a team, you know where 5050. So I supported him going to school and then he supported me going back to school. But I, you know, I had the tool kit and I couldn't do it anymore. And then the opportunity for the business came in and it just happened to be there at the right time or the right place. Well, we're very lucky you had an accounting back. I have an accounting background, so it was easy for me to, you know, put the quotes, invoices and packaging I use. You and Adrian, the package also plates for the telephone system collating, papers collating. And when we started the business that had a partner, I was just helping out. And then that didn't work out. And then when it was time, it was time to get rid of the partner. I said, Well, now is 5050. If I going to, it is 5050. So he said, okay. So I said, okay, done this. 5050 was that easy? That was easy with trust. Trust each other. Yeah, it was. The partner was had a drinking problem and we had to buy him out. Yes. In a panic. Just, just as things were starting to percolate and there wasn't much money in the company. But we ended up buying them out. Yeah. And so I, I received the share. Yes. And so because we had been equal partners and bingo the share went over to your mother. Yeah. And we started with 5000 dollars. That's why the company started with 1500 dollars and I'm from, you know, I had my little typewriter from university and I used to type the quotes on the invoices, the Bell Canada in the kitchen, in the kitchen, in the apartment, in credit. And I mean, if we we had to think people for helping us out it is the hills our landlords an electronic platform because when I used to go take you as a baby and go to Scarborough or to pick up the parts. Yes, I used to give them a check. And I remember the accountant there said to me, because we were very young at that time, he says, little girl, she used to call me a little girl. And, you know, with you in my arms. Right. And driving the old world. Are you that Leo? Valerie leaked to the roof ceiling when the rainy well got wet. And he used to say, Little girl, you don't have to pay me right now, you know, could wait. And I said, No, no, no. We pay our debts and we pay on time. So here you go and we'll manage. But they offered to extend me more, longer credit. But we always I always made sure that our vendors got paid. And I tried to be very fair with all our vendors. Sometimes during the recession we could have because well, we're doing very well with the globalization. And we could have said, Oh, no, give me half the price. But I said, No, fair is fair. You treat them fairly, they treat you fairly. And that's how we connected with some of the vendors on and this has been a good relationship with 90% of them that we've done business with since the beginning in 1983. And so that's one other thing, is I tried to be fair with employees. I tried to be fair with everybody. I don't I don't think there's a chance of ripping somebody off. No, I will never do that. And where does that come from? My parents. Your parents and his parents? Yeah, well, both of them. But big time from your parents. From your both your mother and your father. Oh, my goodness. No, no, you don't. You don't. You don't. Even though Mexico was known for, you know, like I mean, you know, give them $20 and you think that $10 would keep it? No, no, no, no, no. My family. Yeah, no, no. And that's my dad. Just he had his problem, but he was he was a really straight. Yeah. Disciplinary. Yeah. And my mother, she was gosh a saint really. She was so giving her worker, my god, to get to the very end, very hard worker never gave up. She was always as with us kids, you know, not having much

and 6: 19:49

00 in the morning

because five, 530, 6: 19:53

00, she would look it up and start making things so outside the school to support us because my father, my grandfather, my father, she would like make sandwiches and stuff like no, no, she made Gaudi does. Oh yeah. Little, little, you know. Yeah. And, and anything to sell outside that to make to make a living. And she was always just so straight and and she always gave us all the food and sometimes she didn't have any. Yeah. Any for herself when we were little. Yeah. And so when she got older and, and she used to buy just so much food, everything went bad in the kitchen because she got in the refrigerator. But I understood why. Because she didn't want anybody to go hungry anymore. Yeah. And, you know, I, you know very well that your grandmother always helped people listen on her. Yeah. And she people that came around, I ask for her help. She never said no. Yeah. She even if you have to borrow money to help all the people, she always did that. Yeah. So she was a very giving person. Can you describe because it's I'm curious about the business. Your grandfather had the candy business. Your grandfather and grandmother had the candy business. And then basically your mother inherited it, right? No. No. What did your mother inherit from? Nothing. Just a house. Half of the house. The the candy shop was supposed to be for my my aunt. My mother had one only one sister, Luisa. And she was like my second mother. And she was she my this and love money and gold, love gold, love life. And even though she was illiterate, she was extremely, extremely intelligent and charismatic. As was your mother. Yeah. Oh, my mother was very smart. Yeah, but she was very impractical. But my mother was very straight it on my end I would say, oh yeah. Illustrated. I mean quieter too. Yes. And my my, my. And was supposed to inherit the business. And by then my grandfather got cancer and he struggled for about 15 years with the cancer and all his money because he they were very well-off. There was no public health care. So his penalties money in the course of treatment. Yeah. And part half of the house because used to be like almost half a block but he owned half of it where the orchard was and they start this dry land he sold to the neighbors. Yeah. And to be able to pay for the, for the bills so and then my aunt started her own business doing selling pottery. Yeah. And my, my mother by default, you know, inherited the clients then my grandfather had. But my father paid for special lessons for my hands, for very special candy making. And my my mother only learned by looking at it because my mother was already married and she was kind of like victory, like an outcast with my my grandmother. So she didn't get all the benefits than my aunt got. But my aunt my mother learned to make the, you know, the candy fruit and all. So stuff. Yeah. And she she was very gifted. I regard it. Your mother would make trips to Mexico City, right? To buy candy. Special candy that she she didn't make. Yeah. Okay. Like the Little Rock candy and on the special pharmacy, your and the specialty stuff like the citrus and stuff. But all the orange are candied orange figs. The goddess of fruit that she used to. She was famous for for the for the the candy fruit. Yeah. Very famous. Yeah. The takes in the the fake orange peel. Mm. Yeah. I'm just thinking about the it. When you told me about this story when you were seven years old, you went with your mother to Mexico City to hang out with my aunt. Was it with your aunt? It was. Well, my aunt. Oh, I thought it was with your mother. No, no, no. I remember she took me the first time my my Aunt Luisa, to Mexico City, and she was not, like afraid or whatever she was. We are going and we're going in the bus. And then we took the bus from the terminal in Mexico City to the big market where they used to buy the extra candy. And I had no shoes. I was always shoes on my aunt singing her heart out in the bus and everybody's clapping, whatever that, you know. And if she wasn't no shine at all. And like I said, she was very charismatic, takes me to the market and then we go to see relatives of my my grandfather and well-off people. Very nice. She can name was Maria and Maria and she looked like, oh, when you think of Maureen O'Hara, she was the head do coifed and everything very proper and everything on my cousin Cecilia. She was an only child. Her father was a pilot, and I think he died. And my aunt, her mother was an opera singer. Yeah. And and I remember our Cecilia, my cousin looked at me, I says, Oh, what size shoes are you? But she was already a teenager. But regardless of the shoes didn't fit me. But she gave me a couple of precious so I wouldn't be shoeless. Yeah. Going home. Yeah. And I remember they making them because you didn't have any shoes. Got my shoes on. I have. I remember the, the soup that they gave us very well. Garlic soup is according to the Spanish. Yeah. Very Spanish. Yeah. Yeah. And like the Spanish. Like the the onion soup, the French onion. Somebody was garlic. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. And I go, This is different. I didn't like it. You didn't like I didn't like it, but I ate it because my mother always said whatever they put in front of you, you eat, eat and fish head soup, and you make your husband eat it. There you go. But anyhow, that aunt was very nice. And my cousin Cecilia, she's still alive. She's 90 something, though. Yeah. And I still keep in touch with her daughter. Yeah, through Facebook. Oh, okay. Yeah, Facebook. I told you. That's how I find her. That's amazing. Yeah, you've kind of given little snippets, but let's say somebody in your position when you're a child, what what would you give as advice? Work hard. What my parents taught me, pitch in. When you go someplace else. Don't say than wait. Wait to be waited on learn read don't going to those playing games on your game video games keep your mind busy Always learn something new Never stop learning, never stop learning. And when the opportunities are that take them because they don't come back, take them if I can add. Yeah. To to be generous. To be really generous which you share. You share that, that spirit. So and Maria's mother, it always it totally stunned me. It was we were there for a Christmas and I saw her we had a you know, we were doing well. And so there was lots of food. The family was in both houses there. You know, a lot of food had been prepared. The kids were all eating and and so on. And there was her mother getting plates full of food and taking it out to the street because the street kids in the town and there were homeless children or maybe just poor children that were underfed and they were coming down to where your mother's house was, and they were sitting on the sidewalk on the opposite side of the road. And you know that sidewalk yourself so well and your grandmother was taking plate falls of food out to each one and progressively feeding them. Yeah. And like that's walking the walk in my book. You don't, you know, you talk about being generous, but it to me it was astounding. It was almost biblical. It had an end. And she had that inner, deep inner that I think was really astounding. During that year, your mother had that, you know, one one advice I have for everyone, no matter how old they are, small, big, whatever in life gives you lemonade, lemons, make lemonade. If there's never anything bad that comes your way, that you're going to turn into something that's going to happen to be good, I guess. Turning now to running a company, a husband and wife company, you know, family business. What's that been like? You know, you've had the company now 45 years. 45 years. Gosh, yeah. That's crazy. What it's been like running a husband and wife team. I never found it any. Not hard at all. Like getting along, like, you know, he stays in his side. I stay on my side running my my apartment. He runs his apartment. We don't close to each other and we always talk business at home. I try not to do it anymore. I still do breakfast and dinners and whatever. But you need a break sometime but in some I think the that he had his office in one and then I had Mike some of us who live, work and work well. I haven't found any difficulties working with Tony at all. It just sometimes we work a little too much. Well, too much. Too much. I think you have to we have to learn to balance on our our life a little more. And sometimes, you know, life gives you a knock on the head. And that's when you really say, Yeah, I better do it now. But it's been it's been a treat that we were at the right place at the right time and we grew and and, you know, you we have you that you have thick in the interest in the business and really helped us out to grow really because since the eighties when you joined the company when you had to worry too much about, you know, like customer service and sales as much because your dad used to do all that. And now you you taking a big load of that so he can concentrate only on design, like design. And he, you know, he's so good at it. And and the fact that we were able to find so many good people to work for the company, so many good people, many good people. And who has made the life our life easy? Yeah. And I, I'm forever grateful for them. To them. And even in the hard times seem the really bad recession. And I say to Dad, I said, well, should we fold the company? Because he was, you know, really tough in and because we were putting our money. So my got the courage to put the money into the business after 2007. 2007. Yeah. And it was very tough. And then I looked at, I said to that, I said, you know what the Tony, those people have given the life for us that worked for us for so many years. We owe it to them to keep the company alive on this. Get going, keep on sacrifice, you know, sacrificing. So we kept on, you know, Tony and I didn't pay ourselves for two years, two, three years. But we pay the employees. We're I'm getting paid now. And the venture. So getting rice and beans and so on pay the government that the taxes or whatever they you know and I remember during the recession and we had sold the business and all the banks turned the box on us all of them, all of them, even the accountant. And I should, you know, our accountant, we didn't sell the business. We sold the factory. We sort of building. Yeah, yeah, the building. Yeah, the building. Yes. We could have said we'll give you a second mortgage to make it through because we've got plenty of assets. It's not like we were. Well, cash for banerdt. Yeah. In the last poor. Yeah. And nobody came. So that's one thing, that's why, why you had to have the cash because you don't want to be dependent on the banks or anybody else here. And there's a big advantage to operating off a cash. You don't have to do all the reporting. It it's it changes the whole complex of what were the complexion of your business. It changes your relationships with insurance companies, with banks, with lawyers, with everything. So it's tempting sometimes to going to the brand, building big factor or whatever. And I said, no, not worth leveraging, not worth it. No. He wait till the cash flow is there. So the cash flow, you have the cash, then you do it. You don't have the cash because when you need it, they have no mercy. Mm. Okay. Yeah. Which they showed like Shawshank. Gabor said, you know, honey, you go to Hollywood, be careful because they use your that you you up in the spit you out and that's the banks. I got sidetracked and all of that. Yeah, I know. Gosh, it's it's emotional. It is emotional. It's the basic ABCs of what we grew up with that ultimately comes back as a force of power. In your moment of need, it comes back and suddenly it's what carries you through it. You go back to your basics and that's what does it. Okay, so what are your basics? Is hard work. Ultimately, it's hard work. You do the best you can ultimately. And that was always the the the core driving part. You do the very best you can and you'll see clearly now you work hard, you sacrifice. And with working with your spouse, you compromise. You never get everything that you want or of, but you compromise and it works out and and like you does you does always say that you think you're always right. Well, you are 98%. I'm you know. But I compromise, you know that. Oh, yeah. Well, it was nice how it kind of dovetailed in and that's I wanted to go here, which was you've, you know, your your your husband and wife, team, family business, family culture, very family oriented. You know, it's, you know, as kids, we grew up with, you know, everything, all that around and everything was always aboveboard, you know, always family friendly. And and I think the people who are with us and who have been with us through the year, you know, through the years, they become family, you know, and they really are family to us. And that's that's the one thing that I've always said. I do it for the people in the plant. You know, I got to work hard, I got to get these sales and because I got to keep them busy. And. That's right. I mean, that's what drives me, too. You've got you know, there's great stories like you help them to save money. Right. And they could buy houses, you know, because some some people, they came you know, they came to the country, maybe not with the same kind of mindset of save up your money and buy a house. It was. It was. But you help them. You help them. They were good people like Victor, I tell you. Yes, I the victor story, you know, he he overreached for his mortgage. And then, you know, the bank was not to take away the house and the one the one remortgage it right. And says, I paid too much and I'm in trouble. And he came a can you can, can, can you just be a cosigner. Yeah. I don't want any money from you. It just you cosign for the loan and I promise you, I'll never. I'll never, you know, disappoint you. Yeah. And I said, sure, you can think twice about it. Yeah. No, I was in for somebody with no employees because I don't know them. Yeah. It's a different type of. Yeah. You know, you know. And then Sonny, you helped him, you know. Yeah. Everybody, everybody bought the house and people. Yeah. And people sometimes didn't quite believe in the whole savings plan and all that kind of stuff. Then it paid out. Well, you know I when the company was doing really well, we used to always get bonuses and I gave some cash to them. So I have for Christmas now and then most of the money went into an RSP. Yeah. On the company sponsor. Yeah. Yeah, I see. They got really upset on me. Yeah. Some of them got really upset. Give me my money. I just thought your money's the company giving you money. Yeah, but it's not really your money. You want it? I it's my money. Is the company money, right? We don't have to give you anything. And after the years went by the were very pleased because they had some cash savings. Yeah, some savings. So you pulled that old routine that of your mom. Oh, the employees. But then they appreciated it. So it taught them, you know, the values. Yeah. It's, it's like the Singapore story, right. With the forced savings, how did Singapore bring itself out of the mud? It it literally the mud. It the the the the president imposed a savings plan on the people that they had to save. And gradually people became built up wealth. Yeah. And then Singapore built up fabulous wealth. Yeah. And then really became one of the key driving forces in the emergence of China. You know, they were able to invest. So heavily that, that in Taiwan they invested heavily into China. I know we're getting a little off topic, but it's it's it's it's a story they say again and again, you know, you know, the Canadians used to be known for being the best savers in the world. Yeah, not anymore. We had the highest savings rate. Really? Yeah. Oh, I'm not anymore. I don't think so anymore. No. Yeah, I as a as a child, I had my parents opened a bank account. They used to have more. I think I think RBC still has like a, like a young savers kind of account. I had a regular bank account, but. Right. But what I'm saying is they used to have things geared towards kids. I don't think anymore. My first I think it was CIBC, my first kiddy account or something like that, or I can't remember, but it was always exciting book or the book where they always wrote it in because my mind predated computers completely. Well, it was it was very, very I mean, remember your grandparents from your father's side, they always bought a kind of a savings bonds. Yeah. And now what do you buy? Kind of savings bonds? Yeah, you can't anymore. And when we bought the house in Oakville and we bought, you know, we built the build swimming pool, we cashed our savings bonds. That's how we were able to do it. Yeah. And, and so rather than keeping the money in the savings bonds. Yeah, there it went into the swimming pool and everybody enjoyed the swimming pool. Yeah. To the nines. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. That's 18 months. I wish the government would do that again and start again because it was a cure. You know, you. You never lose your money. Yeah. It was low interest by the government through its years in debt. Yeah, that's ridiculous. I know. It's just crazy, but, you know, your grandparents were good savers, man. Your grandmother was really good with the money, too. Grandma Katherine. A little story when just before mom came, I bought a pickup truck. So this would have been in 71. Yeah, and I bought a pickup truck. International Harvester Brand New. Yeah, 20 $700. And I had to borrow about $2,000 from my father thereabouts. And been paying a little bit back, but not much. And, you know, my parents weren't all that good. My mother was not that with your mom. Yeah. And but your mom was fastidious in her savings because she knew that we had debt with my parents. And at that time, it was about $800 left still in debt. And she put the money together and we went over there one Sunday. And because my mother used to always say, kids only come back when they need money, that was that was their belief that we had no real deep affection other than to come for money. Yeah. And Mom put the $800 on the table, and my mother's eyes just bawled. Start of her head. Because none of my brothers or sister ever returned. And it never. Yeah, it's always a one way trip. Yeah, that's one thing. I don't like to. I don't like to or anything to anybody. It's funny that way. I don't I don't feel good when. Well, you like your freedom. Yeah. And one of the nice things in, in the company, the way we, the way we work is we do deeply trust each other. I know that when I saw mom for the first time in Durango, she came around with the rest of the soccer team that was playing in the tournament there. And I saw her for the first time and I she was straight as a whistle, you know, smart and just straight. Yeah. Under percent. It was obvious. Yeah. And she was good looking. Didn't hurt. Didn't hurt. And and, you know, thank you. It's only because, you know, like my brother Antonio always made me feel like I can be as a woman in the world. Wow. It's it's it's action. Yeah, well, so that was. He's on that note, you know, she made a trip ahead of me going to, to Mexico. And after you were married? After we were married. So she she went from Canada to Mexico. And I was in the bus terminal in Toluca. And this is the old bus terminal in the downtown where the busses went underneath the terminal. And I was waiting there and I was expecting her to show up, to pick me up. And I saw our way in the other end of the terminal. It's it's about 200 feet, maybe even more. And you know, the concourse running across the top. And I saw her and I smiled and said, hey, there she is. And, you know, bright eyes and all it was Luisa is your sister. She was the spitting image. I could not tell them apart. Oh, that's funny. Yes, it was funny. Not until she got close. Then it was obvious. Yeah. And yeah, you know, so whatever they want to say, they always had good things to say about Luisa, right? Yeah. Oh, she was so good looking. So they. You like her, so you got to be good looking. No. There you go. See? Here now she's beautiful. She should just go. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, you're beautiful, too, so, you know. So there you go. And so one of the things that I like always about doing business together, and this is a peculiarity, the business, you know, because everybody always talks business plans and talk this and plan that, plan this, plan that. And we never want did a budget. I did. Well, if you did a budget, you didn't tell me about it. Okay. My cash flow on me and I didn't know she never told me once what she's got in the bank. She always kept it concealed. She kept her cards close to her chest. No, I know. I don't conceal anything from you. I gave you the financial statements, but. So I don't have to read that stuff, so. No, it's it's okay. All right. And then on the other hand, I would design product and I would price it. However, I felt like I never got involved in that. Okay. So you're talking about trust, you know, that you trust each other. That's right. There's there's a deep trust with each other. That's right. Business. And I mean, you guys were married ten years, right? No. And then then you started the business. No, it was about you guys got married. Yeah. It's something. Ten years, ten, 11 years. We were 31 and and and two kids now, you know. So that's a fair amount of time to get to know each other. Yeah, right. I mean, I know you said you trusted each other right off the bang, but, you know, to for things to kind of really, you know, become stable now. I never I never doubt it. No. Never done it. No, no, not not stable in your in your relationship. But just for there to be time to do this, you know what I mean? Because at first, you know, it's like you're you I don't think you'd start a business right away as a, you know, newlyweds or something like that. Well, you know, the circumstances weren't there there. But the minute you put it in also the door, you take it. Yeah, we just jump. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and, and other opportunities not I mean the, the, the owner of electronic metal form offered me a job. Yeah. Oh okay. And arranged for a job with Bell Canada and we weren't taken, I mean we, we were in deep into what we were doing and it was just starting to percolate. You could see it starting to come together and but there was a lag when we started the business, there was nothing to lose. We had nothing, nothing to lose. So we the Reagan recession, it wasn't like you need 200,000 lost to sell our business. No, you just started and was starting to get it on. There was nothing to lose. Nothing. Yeah, yeah. So we had nothing we could end up with. Nothing, so it wouldn't be a loss. Yeah. So we took a chance and were always. You always had a belief that you could always land on your feet. Yeah, absolutely. It wasn't like, oh no, this, this is a bust. I'm. I'm nothing, you know? No, no, I'll get a job doing something else. You always absolutely. You can get a job. You can start something else. There's just so many opportunities out there. Yeah, it's once once, you know, you can do something, you know you can do it right. And, and that's, that's the sweet part of it. Yeah. And so, and the irony is, is that like even with the downturns that happened in 2007, you just say, well, I'm going to turn it around. You just believe in yourself and you just keep on going. No, you know what I said to myself, I'm going to show those bankers. Yeah, there you go. So that's always is always the thing that I show them. Yeah, yes, yes. That's for me. Yeah. Somebody sticks something in your side. You're like, That's it. That's the pride that gets you going. Oh, absolutely. I don't give up. Yeah. Now there's a challenge. Right now it's fun. And for me, it's that they put us in a competitive situation like the competition. Oh, yeah. The I there relish is again, you know I relish that that I'm sure you like challenges through that it gets me going just yeah I love pressure you like pressure. I love to write. I'll remember that. Yeah. I don't like arguments. Oh, well, I love pressure. Yeah, because I'm a softie. I really am. Yeah, it's, it's, it's I never like, I was good in hockey. I never had any stomach for, the heavy going. I just. I didn't want to fight with anyone. Yeah, so it just. Just wasn't me. Yeah. And Adrian was. Is your brother is pretty much the same story. He's. He didn't have any love for the heavy going in hockey. No, he was an excellent hockey player. He, he lie like a jet. He doesn't like fighting with people like like like in school. I remember case the economy. He just walked away. Yeah. And to his credit, when you go looking at the company, do you have any like proudest aspects of it that I mean, that it's still around, I think, you know, and that it's still it's producing good product and and, you know, it stands for something. There's there's not been like an element of sellout in the in the business. I think that one of the brightest times for me was when we built our factory in Mississauga. And that was a beautiful factory. It was a beautiful factory. And it was hard to leave it. But you know what? The way the area's going. Yeah, it's just like it would have been used a matter of time. Yeah, because it's not going to be there. No, the zoning, they relax all the zoning laws. He's terrible now and the crime and everything. No, I don't. Everything has changed. Yeah. So it's not. It's not what it used to be because when we started looking for to build a factory and we said we had a, it was all metal vale. Oh my God. That is, you know, we never thought I never, never dreamed that, that we would have had that had that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go with the best. Yeah. And right next door to the, to the downtown hotel, the Merivale, which that's what it was before the Delta got in and before the, the, yeah. The Hilton, you know, took it over. Yeah. Well I like that was the creme de la creme spot. I like to think so. McCallion, the mayor of Mississauga for so many years, because she did a beautiful job with the city. And once she's gone, they don't know how to run the city anymore. Now it's so obvious. Yeah. No, she ran that city. Your saw. Beautiful. Yeah, it. It went downhill right after. No, you want to look at something? Somebody's life. The leadership. She had the leadership? Yeah. Yeah. And little. Little one. But boy, such a powerful, powerful, yeah. WOMAN And she had respect all over Canada. The passion. The passion that she had for the for the city. Really? Oh, my goodness. Yeah. She also proudest says oh yeah. You know Toronto is she said Toronto's a suburb of Mississauga it's kind of true Mississauga is huge. You know, we always thought I was always my my I, I thought for sure the city of Mrs. Saga would honor her mayor for what she did because she she pieced all the communities together that became Mississauga. Yet it wasn't like a county or something that was instantaneously their credit. He was this, it was that. And she put it all together and she had very good people working in the different departments because the planning department, I remember when they built the hospital and I said, What is the hotel doing in the middle of cornfields? Yeah, but they had a vision. Yeah, they built the 403. They build the Mississauga road all the way up. They built all around all the infrastructure ready for the the city to grow. And the vision that those people had with the mayor. Amazing. They actually sold their no. How about city planning to a lot of other city cities? Oh yeah. Mississauga, was that good? And while Keisha McCallion was on in the city, she was always in the surplus. Never. And the negative? Never. So what made her so good? She always said there's no room for government in in the boardrooms, businesses. So let the business be the business helped them to grow and she helped us give them what they need to grow. How does she was exact opposite of what we ran into in North Carolina and exact opposite opposite so happened to those speed things up she oh you could call her up and she would cut through to the let's see if there were engineers bogging you down or somebody in one department or other and she'd cut right through it, straighten this out, get it done, get it done, you know, build our factory. When we built the plant in an on Mississauga Road on cemetery in that year, the bond market had blown up. Yeah. And construction had completely grind ground to a halt. And because we were doing so well on the international stage, yeah. Like we were exporting just a ton of product. Yeah. Our construction project was the largest construction project in Mississauga at that time, so it caught their attention. And then and then when we opened, Mom actually asked Harris the yes the premier came. Yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, and, and Charlie and Gloria came because and they were, you know, what? I really sort of treasured that was and, you know, they were almost like alternate parents for me in many ways. Yeah. And there was a surprised oh my goodness. Oh that we honored the well they helped establish the company. Hey they open the doors. Yeah. To Yeah. And my former partner this is funny. He met Charlie. Oh and because he he knew that Charlie hurt, he got talking to me one day and I said, this just isn't going well. Right. You know, and, and he got the lowdown and Charlie looked them up. Oh, and absolutely it scared the living hell out of them. Intimidated of really? That's why he got out in a heartbeat. Yeah, he wanted out, Charlie chuckles. Yes, you dart, you know, he says, he says he's your sort of like alternate father, something like that. And he says, I bet you he could be a mean one. Something like that too, you know. Yeah. And it was some expletives just, you know, the guy was always expletives between beers. It was like, oh, okay. When you consider that since Inception says since 1983, we've carried the largest bank in Canada consistently and actually maintain good relationships with key people throughout that entire time. And that that's fun, you know, it's unfortunate for like in a lot of other the banks because we were the dominant player for a long time. It's unfortunate that so many people retired and because there were so many good relationships and you know, over the years, I mean, 43, 45 years, this is a long time. I guess it's 40, 45. Oh, it's 42 years or eight years because it was 20, 26 what 43 years is 43 losing track. Yeah. So, but I mean that's that's I guess that's it's a natural course now that people. Yeah, yeah. Retired or retired. Yeah. Yeah. No, but it's just that we had such a long run. It's kind of like with our employees, right? It's such a long run. And, you know, it's like you're looking at, Oh, okay, there's going to be a change over there's and there's change over with clients. There's change. Well, the challenge with the clients are this challenge with the staff for not challenging because then you had to start replacing. Yeah, right. Yeah. And, and it's the maturation of the company, you know, you go, okay, well is it going to make it through the next cycle? And that's always, you know, well, make it through the hurdle. So it was, it's it's really been a source of pride all that time. And there's been other companies like that that we've carried for just forever is just you look after them and they keep coming back. Yeah. You know, Eric, Canada's one sienna's one. Well, even some that leave and then they come back and it's it was a really big source of pride that in I can't remember the year exactly but that we hired the entire graduating class in coming college. Yeah. From Humber College or to yeah it doesn't matter. We hired the entire graduating class, you know, everybody that was available and that, that's how we approached it. We were ready to take everybody, right? You know. Yeah. And and Darryl. Darryl is is still there, you know? Yeah, very much so. So we've had a lot of interesting people, you know, the company. Oh, yes. You can read their books. There you go. Ten books about all the people. Absolutely. But yeah, there's the family in Mexico. There's the family, you know, Chatham, Windsor and then abroad. And then there's the port credit family, you know, with yeah, with the hills and everybody that they brought us into, you know, the hills gave us a whole life there, you know, port credit. And then we have the family, you know, at the company and our son, Yuki. Absolutely. And you know, you saw the employees coming to work single. They get married, they got children, the children get married. We've gone to, you know, children's weddings. Yeah. And then there'll be grandchildren coming along and and, you know, it's it's it's great. Yeah. And we always remember our Christmas parties. Oh, yes. You know, some of the best. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, we hired we used to have black tie Christmas parties with hired the the the house band from the old mills. But you know, Tony, things have changed. Not only for our companies, for all of the companies, even the big ones. They don't have parties like the people don't necessarily have interest in it. And, you know. Yeah, are this lawsuits against, you know, drinking and driving? And you are so exposed to so many things and they just say, I don't need it as a company. Yeah, drinking can be a problem. Yeah. And all that. So but it used to be a real a big deal that when we were having those really lovely Christmas parties and, and so many of the employees were staying overnight. Yeah. And the girls that like we would get, we would have fancy dress, we'd get her hair done, you know, it was, it was a real event. Yeah, it was a real event. But I think they're still, you know, they're all. She sighs light up when we talk about the old Christmas how you want we like to have an all oh yes yeah a few people like our queen. I think there are a few people who would do it. So yeah, some. So maybe one of these days, you know, what I'll do is you have a big old Christmas party and all my previous employees, you know, you got former employees and then they love to come. Yeah, I like to think of his name was Brian, right? The miracle that he has. Yes. A very interesting story. Had he had that illness. Yes. Yes, I think he had. They basically said he had years to live. Really? Like like it was less than years. It was it was a short while know. And and then he had met another girl or met met a girl. They had the same the same the same disease. But we had him so busy working that he just forgot all about his disease. No, no, no. He didn't forget about his C's. No, because he was very yellow sometimes. So taking the medicine that he was taking and then sometimes the pain was so bad and I didn't know this that. He was drinking. Yeah. To kill the pain. And that's why sometimes we're afraid. I used to pick him up and take him home. I thought he was. He was just like, yeah, he was drinking. Yeah. And he was. And actually, Brian got a job at Humber College, thanks to Adrian. Oh, really? Yes. Because Agent taught him a lot of the the computer. I mean, he got he got missing out here on something that they came out with a cure. Absolutely. For his illness. I can't remember what the illness was, but they came up with a cure. And so he. Yeah, he stopped. But he he spoke to me and he says I've gone way past. Yes. The time period that they gave me. Yeah. He says I've gone right past it and he did give that we had him so busy and he enjoyed his work. Well, I mean both of you have gone through, you know, health issues recently and being able to continue working. Yeah, has been a huge huge help, you know, mentally takes you out of here, you know, really like a rut. I just think it's cool. Like, you know, when we think about all the the people who've worked for us and stuff like that. And I just thought, I mean, it had nothing to do with us. We didn't come up with the cure, but it was just a lovely story. It's a miracle that it's still lives to this day. So this. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I will try to beat cancer, too. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So we keep on going. Went over Lincoln and we'll do the challenges and try to move forward and and do our best. Thanks for checking out workspace design lab. If you're an architect, interior designer or workplace professional looking to stay ahead in ergonomic office design and modern workspace interiors, make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast platform for more resources on Sustainable Office Furniture and human centered workspace design, visit us at Nova Lincoln. Until next time.