Why Adjustable Furniture Fails Without Proper User Education | Workspace Design Lab Ep. 14

What if the biggest ergonomic risk in today’s workplace is sitting on your laptop?

In this episode of Workspace Design Lab, host Syl VanderPark speaks with Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner, OTD, OTR/L, AOEAS, CEAS-II, President and Lead Ergonomic Specialist at The Rising Workplace, about how clinical ergonomics, occupational therapy and human-centered workspace design can prevent injuries before they become costly problems.

Nikki shares how her background in occupational therapy shaped her preventive approach to workplace ergonomics, why adjustable desks and chairs are not enough on their own, and how personal, environmental and occupational factors all shape performance, comfort and wellbeing at work.

This conversation explores laptop use, hybrid work, home office setup mistakes, ADA accommodations, inclusive workspace design, ergonomic education and the importance of bringing ergonomic specialists into the design process early.

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Transcript

Coming up...

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 0:00

If I were to pick one thing that was the biggest risk factor for working from home, it's laptop use. There's really not the adjustability to allow a person to work within a neutral posture that puts the least amount of stress and strain on their body.

Syl VanderPark 0:12

That's Dr. Nikki Williamson Wiener, president and league ergonomics specialist at the Rising Workplace, a company that brings clinical ergonomic expertise to workspaces of every kind, from home offices to Fortune 100 corporate campuses. Nikki is a licensed occupational therapist with a doctorate from Washington University in St. Louis. Her team delivers ergonomic assessments, training, and consulting across the United States. And her work has been published in the American Journal of Occupational Therapy and featured in the New York Times, Business Insider, and CBS News.

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 0:44

But the breakdown a lot of times is what we would call low-hanging fruit, and that is simply education. You invested in those great chairs and desks. Now, are we doing anything to educate our employees on the significance and the impact and also how to adjust, or maybe sending somebody in to help do some sweeps within the office to get folks situated and adjusted so they know how to do it?

Syl VanderPark 1:07

She believes the most effective workspaces start with the person, not the furniture. In a world where remote and hybrid work have created millions of improvised workstations and musculoskeletal complaints are rising, Nikki brings the clinical evidence to answer a question most workspace designers are not asking. How does the human body actually interact with this space? In this episode, you'll learn why purchasing ergonomic furniture without assessing the person using it fails to solve the problem. What the dynamic relationship between personal, environmental, and occupational factors means for workspace design, and how clinical assessment turns that framework into actionable decisions. And how small, evidence-based ergonomic interventions can reduce workplace injuries by 30% while improving employee engagement

From clinical rehabilitation to workplace ergonomics

Syl VanderPark 1:54

and retention. I'm Sylvander Park, and this is Workspace Design Lab. So you are a licensed occupational therapist who now leads an ergonomic consulting firm. How did you make that transition from clinical rehabilitation to workplace ergonomics?

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 2:12

Initially, when I graduated in an inpatient rehab environment, and that was, you know, very reactive. You're rehabilitating somebody after an injury, whether it's work-related or not work-related, or sometimes, you know, stroke, brain injury, that kind of thing, orthopedic. And a few things. So I worked for a great non-for-profit rehab center, and it got purchased by a large for-profit healthcare company. With that came a lot of changes that were not, I think, good for the community and good for the patients we were serving. And there also came limitations to what I was doing as a therapist. And so I started to feel a loss of control and autonomy in my work and feeling like I could do more with, you know, the skill set I had and my education, if I would did something on my own. So, and also it's this thing of, you know, our modern medical system is reactive in nature. You know, it's not covered by health insurance if it's a problem that hasn't happened yet. But wouldn't it make so much more sense if we could address issues before they happened? And so that is, you know, in the realm of ergonomics, that's essentially what we're doing. It's injury prevention. It's trying to avoid injuries before they become a costly problem to our healthcare system. And so when we started to explore this as a concept, it just became, you know, a really refreshing idea. And I felt like clinically I had a strong basis to go out and do something that was more preventive, less reactive, more impactful, less restriction of working within the medical environment and moving out as a consultant, essentially.

Syl VanderPark 3:54

You talk about the dynamic relationship between personal, environmental, and occupational factors. Can you break that framework

Why person, environment and job task all matter

Syl VanderPark 4:03

down for someone who designs workspaces but has never studied occupational therapy?

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 4:08

Sure. And I'm really glad that you bring that up because it's such a foundational model for any area of practice for an occupational therapist. It comes originally from a model called the PEOP model for short, person, environment, occupation, performance. And that model was developed by Bob and Christensen. And Bob was the program chair when I was actually at Washington University in St. Louis. So I had the opportunity to work with her and know her. Our performance is enhanced when we have the right fit between the person and their capabilities, cognitive, mental, and otherwise, all of our human capabilities with the environment that we're working within or operating within, doing whatever activity that we're doing, and occupation or job task or simple daily activity. We use the word occupation and occupational therapy to represent all of the things that we do every single day. So when those things fit together nicely, the person is matched to their environment. The environment is matched to the person, the person is matched to the job tasks or the activity, and the job tasks or activity is the right level for that person. That's when our performance is enhanced. And so, you know, in my rehab days, we were doing essentially the same thing. Somebody came off an injury, a back injury, and now we were doing a kitchen activity. And what would we do to enhance performance? We'd modify the environment. We'd also try and work on the skills of the individual. So we'd work on the person and then we work on the job task itself. Is there a way to simplify this? Is there a way to modify this? And so when you're kind of going at it from all three angles and with the ultimate goal of finding that fit, that's where our performance is increased or enhanced. So reducing the likelihood of injury caused by wear and tear over time and bodily stress. And so if somebody's in an environment that's not well suited for them or working in a job that is not a good fit for them, that for various, you know, reasons can cause an injury. And that's what we see most often.

Syl VanderPark 6:09

Have you ever like worked with either a firm or a person and it was like, this job is not suited for you because you know it's making you hunch your shoulders and this is causing this kind of wear and tear? And they didn't realize the stress that it was giving them or discomfort.

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 6:27

I think every day that's exactly what we're doing. The challenges for employers, how do we help our workflow and our work environments fit more people? Because we're all different physically. So anthropometrically is kind of the word we talk about the science of human measurement. And so, how do we create workspaces that will match the full spectrum of people? And or even, I think normally it's you're going for the 95th percentile, but even then that leaves out a great deal of people. And so when you're looking at an individual workstation, sometimes it's a little easier, but then you're working, looking at something that's shared by a lot of different people. You really want to follow those guidelines and also not assume that that's going to be enough for everyone.

Syl VanderPark 7:16

We've been working on a project where it's like, okay, there's three shifts on a desk

When adjustability becomes too complicated to use

Syl VanderPark 7:21

in a mission critical arena. We have the height adjustable on different zones for like the work surface, and then one monitored zone, you know, one row of monitors goes up and down independently from the work surface, and then there's another row in behind, and then there's an overhead. And there's, you know, there's uh back and forth for optical adjustment as well, and then tilting, you know, you think, well, you've got there's a lot of complexity there for three people coming in and trying to. So we said, yeah, you got to hit that 95 percentile of, you know, where somebody sits or where somebody stands. And you don't want too much ergonomics or it being, you know, distracting from doing the work. It's an interesting kind of balance that you're trying to strike to say you've got, you know, I obviously I just speak from a furniture standpoint, but there's so many other factors going on in the room too.

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 8:15

Yeah. And that example that you shared is a great example. And it's yes, okay, it's highly adjustable, but is it intuitive? Is it easy to use? And have the people been educated on how to use it and the behavior component. So that's kind of the person, the environment, and the job, right? So from a person perspective, are they practicing the behavior of making the adjustments? Because you've got the environment piece there, right? And then even take it a step either beyond more the pre-design phase. It's like, you know, is this product designed to be intuitive and easy to use? Because that's where it breaks down a lot of the time.

Syl VanderPark 8:49

I'm all about user interfaces everywhere these days because it it really has to be easy to use and yet not too complicated that if it breaks down, it's too comp like if you have an app or something like that. If you have it break down in a mission critical center, you don't want that breaking down. So you got to keep it as simple as possible. I just find it interesting because we talk about behavior and you know, you say, okay, you can have this loaded desk, but if it doesn't actually get used, you don't want the client to necessarily miss out on that. So yeah, that's interesting. The pandemic sent millions of people to work from makeshift home offices. What did you see in terms of the injuries and complaints that came out of that shift?

The laptop problem behind remote work injuries

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 9:32

I think what I saw after COVID was anecdotally more complaints. And I think there is, you know, now research that supports that. Also at the same time came more awareness of ergonomics, I think. I think it's more of a household term than it used to be. And it was the pandemic that kind of pushed that forward. So maybe there's a silver lining there. If I were to pick one thing that was the biggest risk factor for working from home, it's laptop use. So there's really not the adjustability to allow a person to work within a neutral posture that puts the least amount of stress and strain on their body. So either you'll be looking down or you'll be reaching up or away from your body. There you just can't win unless you're, again, practicing the behavior of plugging in to an external mouse and keyboard, even using a stack of books to raise your screen if you're trying to be crafty or resourceful. But ultimately, it's the full, you know, if you're a computer workstation user, it's the monitor, mouse, keyboard interface that allows you to make the adjustments so that you're not in that awkward position that causes over time discomfort. So there are a number of other things too. Chairs, I think, are a biggie because chairs tend to be expensive and confusing as to what the right one to buy is, especially if it's an adjustable chair. Yet we want adjustable chairs. And so that would maybe be a secondary to the laptop thing that we see a lot. But comes down to an improper setup and then probably habits surrounding your work too. So, of course, we saw people working from their beds and their couches and you know, standing at their kitchen counter. And I think we can be forgiving to ourselves in in some of those situations and try and not totally lose ergonomics when we have to be in those situations where we simply don't have the option. But when it comes to kind of settling in your, you know, full-time working from home, it is crucial to have a setup that allows you to adjust in terms of preventing the stress and strain of computer workstation use.

Syl VanderPark 11:38

Yeah. Guilty. All of us. Most companies address ergonomics by purchasing adjustable desks and ergonomic chairs. Why is that not enough?

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 11:50

So you've addressed the environment, but you haven't addressed the people. And then is it still even then enough for your outliers? We see a lot of issues with

Why buying ergonomic furniture is not enough

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 11:59

petite individuals or very tall individuals, or think about the whole spectrum of people with disabilities with limb differences or vision differences. I think there also needs to be a program or a policy in place to address ergonomic needs beyond the standard. And then at the same time, your standard being highly adjustable for most people. But the breakdown a lot of times is what we would call low-hanging fruit. And that is simply education. You know, you invested in those great chairs and desks. Now, are we doing anything to educate our employees on the significance and the impact and also how to adjust, or maybe sending somebody in to help do some sweeps within the office to get folks situated and adjusted so they know how to do it. There's so many easy wins when it comes to that human behavior and just having a quick guide, a quick resource for employees that I think otherwise would think that they're quote unquote ergonomic simply because they have the nice chair and desk, but it's not adjusted properly.

Syl VanderPark 13:02

I love that the the desks that are or you know, furniture that's beyond the standard. You've got your your general standard, but also have make accommodation for a certain percentage that's maybe going to be either shorter or taller, for example. Walk us through what a rising workplace assessment actually looks like. When an organization brings you in, where do you start?

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 13:24

And this maybe goes back to how I was informed as an occupational therapist in a healthcare setting, but it starts by listening

What an ergonomic assessment really starts with

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 13:31

to the person. So first let's let's talk about what are you what is your discomfort area. Tell me about your work routine and your habits and how much time you're spending at the computer, how much you're sitting for how long, what are your job demands, what are your concerns, take a full inventory of what you already have. And so we don't jump in and start moving stuff around without getting a full understanding of the person in the current environment and the job tasks. Then we take that as we move towards the adjustment phase. And so again, listening, because it can be really annoying when you run up to somebody's desk and you start moving things around without really understanding what's important to them and their history. Then we start from the ground up. So usually it's making the adjustments we can with the equipment that's available. So doing the best we can, even if there is something missing, then we can make that recommendation. But I don't like to leave a person and say, you know, oh, there's nothing we can do here, you know, I'll go get a few reams of paper to raise the screen or mock up, you know, what it would feel like by rolling a towel behind the back if they don't have a lumbar support. But generally then we work from the ground up, chair adjustments, and then move to the work surface, mouse and keyboard screens, and then probably circling back to habits. And if there's anything extra in terms of their job demands, some people need document readers, some people are not using webcams properly. And so we kind of want to take an inventory and a look at kind of those periphery items outside of chair, mouse and keyboard, work surface and screens.

Syl VanderPark 15:07

Do you ever go into clothing items? Like, you know, I think there was a lot of advertisement, at least on social media, for Taylor Swift. She had a top that straightened her back or something like that.

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 15:20

Do those things work? So, what works much better than that is a chair with back support. And so it, you know, I don't endorse products like that. I haven't tried them myself. I think there the solution from an ergonomic standpoint for a seated workstation would be a chair with proper back support. And there's plenty of things we can do to kind of cue ourselves. And that's what I see as the benefit of something like that is that you need more cueing. You're, you know, your self-cueing maybe isn't enough. And so that helps you, but it's not going to be the cure all for posture. If, you know, and there's various different things we can do. Like in the therapy environment, we would use kinesio tape that you see on athletes that wear, you know, that's a good cue for positioning of the body. And so I think it's not entirely bad, but it wouldn't be something we recommended in the scope of an assessment. And it would be something more just to have a discussion with that individual and how you know it may or may not help them.

Syl VanderPark 16:16

Yeah. Just a fun aside. That's all I see it.

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 16:18

And I wonder if those work. People bring that up quite a bit.

Syl VanderPark 16:21

So yeah, because there was something else that I had tried a number of years ago. My co-worker and I, I said, I'm gonna try it. And it was supposed to be like a reminder or something that said, okay, on your phone now, straighten up, remember to sit up, or something like that. So yeah, so it

How one design detail created a costly workstation problem

Syl VanderPark 16:37

is, it comes down to the queue. Can you share an example where an ergonomic assessment fundamentally changed the direction of a workspace design project?

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 16:45

The pre-design phase is critical. And it's where it becomes a costly problem later if we don't address it in the beginning. And so I have seen a couple of cases, like I can think of one where it was a you know, multi-floor large office and they all had something like 18-inch depth desks. So pretty, you know, not too deep. And according to standards and guidelines, that would be acceptable, right? But then when you add on the monitor arms that they use, and the desks are then positioned up against the wall or a divider, you lose your depth. And so all of a sudden, we have a workplace of hundreds of desks, monitor arms, again, high-end, upscale everything. And we have a problem that employee employees are having incredible amounts of eye strain, and you know, their screens are way too close to them. And we're having to then think about how do we negotiate this problem now that the decision is already made. And so can you imagine if if somebody had come in and done a consultation on the front end to kind of consider the not only the individual choices that were made, because again, all according to adjustability standards and guidelines, but how they combo, right? The effect they have on each other, and then you know, the added layer of, and then they're positioned up against the wall. And so, you know, and so it's that kind of thing. I'm cringing. I'm feeling bad. Yeah. Yeah, right. And it's like a huge investment on the front end that could have been avoided. And so that's an example that the direction of that did not change because it had already been done and it becomes the employer's responsibility, right? So if an employer is working with a vendor and a designer who, you know, doesn't necessarily pay attention to those types of things later on down the road, it's not the designer's, you know, fault. It's the it becomes the the responsibility of the employer. So it's a tricky space to be in.

Syl VanderPark 18:50

It is. And you know, with a furniture with chairs and and equipment and all that, getting a mock-up can really go a long way too in the pre-design phase.

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 19:00

It's definitely one of my favorite spaces to work within. We've done projects where the designer sent us their plans and we just fully kind of audited it and took into consideration of the way that the things interact and we look at things like the ergonomic standards and guidelines, but also ADA and you know, other considerations that would impact workflow and performance. And so I think

The early interventions that reduce workplace injuries

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 19:24

when we do those types of projects, they always change the direction to some degree based on what we find.

Syl VanderPark 19:30

Your outcomes data shows a 30% reduction in workplace injuries. What are the most common interventions that drive that result?

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 19:39

Anything categorized as early intervention, really early intervention to address discomfort early when an employer, we have on-site injury prevention programs, for instance, where an employee could come to a program and meet with somebody with an early sign or signal of MSD or discomfort. And then we can work with them on making those adjustments behaviorally to their workspace, to their job demands before it escalates into a work-related issue, which, you know, work-related musculoskeletal problems are enormously expensive, right? So $20 billion a year in the US in direct costs. So not including indirect, right? And indirect is like twice that. So direct cost meaning the cost of medical care, workers' compensation, this kind of thing. The just a simple strain is something like 33K to an employer. And so when you think about these costs, if we're saying one employee, the cost of prevention is enormously returning on your investment. So that's how we do it. So we do it through early intervention. That includes education, that includes assessment, and that includes, you know, project-specific consulting and programs that reach and engage employees. How many people do you have? Is it just the two of you doing all this work? No, no, and I I do very little direct service anymore. I'm involved in a lot of our larger projects and our on-site programs, but we have a team, we have a team all over, basically covering the map. And then we have our, you know, a virtual programs director in Denver, who's an occupational therapist. We have our office program director in Raleigh, who's an OT as well. We've got an athletic trainer in Detroit who's our industrial programs director. And so we've really grown over the years.

Syl VanderPark 21:32

This is tremendous. I'm really grasping, you know, everything that you're doing and seeing the you know the scale of it. So that's pretty that's wonderful. Um ADA responsible accommodation is a significant part of your work. How does clinical ergonomic assessment inform inclusive workspace design decisions?

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 21:54

First off, it's not all types of accommodations, of course. And so the classic example

How clinical assessment supports ADA accommodations

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 21:58

would be an individual who has. Chronic condition or a disability that impacts their work, potentially with a solution that's an alternative piece of equipment or even schedule related to their work. When we it gets into other aspects of ADA like accessibility, of course, it really becomes the intersection between occupational therapy, ergonomics, and assistive technology. So it is absolutely best practice to work with an outside consultant when you have to deal with these cases, because if you're only dealing with employee employer, there are tensions and conflicts that arise. And the mistake that's made most of the time is that the employee presents a note from their doctor saying they need an accommodation for, let's say, a standing desk. And then the employer just purchases the standing desk, problem solved. But let's wind back and ask, okay, let's say this is for a back issue. Okay. Is the standing desk going to be enough to be effective, which is the most important thing? Are we going to be re-entering that interactive process, looking at this all again? Because does the employer know about the right desk? What if the same mistake is made? A lot of times we see the employer go for the cheap option, and that's going to be the desktop riser that sits right on top of the desk. If the person has a back issue, are they then having to lift and maneuver that riser? Is it too high? You know, there's a lot of factors that if you don't bring in a professional or a consultant just interpersonally, but also just having the knowledge, the advanced knowledge of the solutions is going to end you in a more effective space as opposed to trying to navigate that on your own. And so that's the role that we play in that. And it's often recomm making recommendations, not always exactly what's written on that, you know, note from the doctor. It could, we have to look at the entire workspace. And so even though it's goodwill and good intent to say, oh, a standing desk is really going to help you, but is that enough? No, it's never it never is enough.

Syl VanderPark 23:56

You're looking at things holistically and addressing, yeah, from top to bottom. You recently launched AOTA accredited certification courses to bring more occupational therapists into ergonomics. Why is that pipeline important for the future of workspace design?

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 24:15

There are many disciplines within the field of ergonomics, and I think it's it's very critical and important that we all work together and we all are seated together at the table to help solve these problems, you know, engineers,

Why more occupational therapists belong in ergonomics

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 24:25

athletic trainers, physical therapists. But of course, I have a bit of a passion project over the years for me because I myself having gone this route, I see the impact we can make with our background and how it's just kind of a perfect fit for the way that we think as occupational therapists, our assessment skills, our ability to consider environments. And at the same time, only something like 2% of occupational therapists work within the realm of ergonomics. And so I'm trying to sound the call and provide something that it has also not really been there. And that's specific certification and education for OTs. And so there really isn't a certification program specifically for OTs in ergonomics. And so, again, in addition to everything else we do, it's just something I felt like I had to do as a service to my profession.

Syl VanderPark 25:18

So I think it's wonderful too, because you know, like occupational therapy for me, my understanding of it, it can be also very physical for the person. And, you know, after a while, that that can have wear and tear. Like, correct me if I'm wrong, but kind of help people get up. And, you know, you're you're you are dealing with physical challenges. And to be able to see like a track, like, okay, you can do this, and then there's something beyond it if should you want to, you know. I don't know what else is offered, you know, in schools when they say if you become an occupational therapist, is that the end of the line? This opens it up to something more.

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 25:55

Yeah, absolutely. And we can bring something unique to the field that is, to your point, just more holistic and you know, person-centered. I think there's absolutely a role for if we need to redesign a work space, you're gonna want to bring in an engineer, in or you know, uh somebody with a background in human factors engineering. If you're going to reconsider a workflow or adapt the way or train people on how to work within that work environment, I mean, it's it's just we can be more hands-on, right? Than it not to say that we're any better than an engineer. We all need to work together, but it's the understanding the human body and mechanism of injury component in addition to the environmental modification piece that I think really works well.

Syl VanderPark 26:45

I think it's one of those things that you're a very personable person, you know, like you're fun to talk to and you bring that to ergonomics. You make it very human, you know, and thoughtful towards, like you said, human-centric and that kind of thing.

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 26:58

That's what we're going for, is to be accessible and approachable and you know, resourceful. So I think that's kind of almost like gave us the edge as a company in comparison to a lot of our competitors working in a space. It's we are very much of the, you know, talk to me first, not this is this is what you you need to do.

Syl VanderPark 27:18

And consider everything, you know, and you understand, you have that innate understanding of what does need to be considered. There's a wisdom to it. For the architects, designers, and facilities managers listening right now, what is one ergonomic principle they could start applying to every project tomorrow?

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 27:36

Look at your

One ergonomic principle designers can apply tomorrow

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 27:37

ergonomic standards that can be helpful. Consult an ergonomic specialist, consult the person who's going to be working within the space. And then if you go for things that are more adjustable, say the the example of working within an office serving multiple people, more adjustability will be more comfortable for more people. That is key, but just because it says it's ergonomic doesn't mean it's ergonomic. So don't be fooled. Don't be fooled by the name because it's it's really thrown around a lot. Point yourself more towards the standards and that can help you in a design project and avoid the desks with the big drawers.

Syl VanderPark 28:12

Acknowledge that, you know, there are specialists in the ergonomics field that can add, right? It's not just something that you say, okay, I have an understanding of ergonomics and I can apply it. You know, if you have specialists with for IT and HR and design, ergonomics deserves that place on the table at the table.

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 28:35

Collaborate, right? Right. That's the beautiful thing about it. That's when it really works well.

Syl VanderPark 28:39

Do you ever help furniture companies design when they they do their standards and that kind of thing?

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 28:44

Yeah, we've done that a few times, coming out with new products or even just ideas for products. We've done product-specific consultation projects like that before.

Syl VanderPark 28:54

Well, thank you again for your time today. We'll be in touch, you know, to follow up on this and uh really appreciate your time and all the all the great stuff that you bring. You are refreshing the way you can talk about it so easily and your angle. So it's been a uh a pleasure to get to know you.

Dr. Nikki Williamson Weiner 29:12

You too as well. Thank you so much for inviting me. Take care.

Syl VanderPark 29:15

Thanks for checking out Workspace Design Lab. If you're an architect, interior designer, or workplace professional looking to stay ahead in ergonomic office design and modern workspace interiors, make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast platform. For more resources on sustainable office furniture and human centered workspace design, visit us at Novalink.com. Until next time.