Why RTO Mandates Backfire When the Office Contradicts Culture | Workspace Design Lab Ep. 16

What makes people want to come back to the office?

In this episode of Workspace Design Lab, Sylvanna VanderPark sits down with Collin Burry, Design Director and Principal at Gensler. With more than 27 years at one of the world's leading design firms and projects spanning Apple, Pixar, Nike, Samsung, Airbnb, Dolby, and San Francisco International Airport, Collin brings a unique perspective on how workplace design is evolving.

They explore why return-to-office mandates often fail, how workplace experience has become more important than square footage, and why the future of work depends on creating environments that support culture, wellbeing, flexibility, and human connection.

Collin shares insights from decades of designing award-winning workplaces, discusses the rise of neuro-inclusive and human-centered design, and explains why the most successful organizations are focusing less on hierarchy and more on creating spaces where people can do their best work.

Connect with Collin Burry:
LinkedIn
Gensler Website

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Transcript

Coming up...

Collin Burry 0:00

Yes, there is resistance. I think most people are, but I think they're doing it on their terms. I don't think mandates really work now.

Syl VanderPark 0:07

That's Colin Burry, design director and principal at Gensler, who spent 27 years inside one of the most influential design firms in the world with workplaces for Apple, Pixar, Nike, Samsung, and Airbnb under his belt. He believes the future of workplace design is not about forcing people back into the office. It's about creating spaces that are human, useful, and worth coming back to.

Collin Burry 0:30

To become frictionless means that the office or the space is not in my way of me doing my job. If you come in and it's hard to navigate the space, maybe you're going to a new office or the global company organization and you're going to the new office for the first time or something and you can't find your way around. You can't find people, you don't know where the coffee bar is, no longer where the toilet is or whatever it is.

Syl VanderPark 0:51

In this episode, you'll learn which legacy workplace design rules are quietly creating friction on your projects, what Colin actually means when he says workplace design needs to become frictionless, and how to start applying his human-first design language on your next brief without overhauling your practice. I'm Sylvanna Vanderpark, and this is Workspace Design Lab. You've spent uh 27 years inside one of the most influential design firms on the planet. And now you're openly saying the rule book uh that that the industry runs on is part of the problem. Uh what

Why Colin says the industry rulebook is part of the problem

Syl VanderPark 1:24

changed for you and and when did you know?

Collin Burry 1:26

Great question. I think uh you know, we in my career, it's funny because I think I've done this now 40 years in June next month, which is crazy.

Syl VanderPark 1:35

Congratulations.

Collin Burry 1:36

Um Thank you. Yeah, I and I've survived. No, I've been to cancer almost 20 or 29 years actually, and also in June, um, which has been an amazing journey. But I think what's been really fascinating is that, you know, you see the industry change pretty majorly over the course of time, right? So there's different sort of eras. And, you know, I think this era, the change that's about to happen, it's actually, I think we're like midstream or whatever, and is is happening, both driven by sort of hybrid work, right? After the pandemic, and people I think really, you know, I've left so much, there's been so many conversations about this, but you know, really questioning work-life balance, you know, and wanting more more work-life balance, right? And um in addition to changes in technology, right? I think that the fascinating thing is that, you know, normally a big shift in sort of the workplace model happens at the same time that there's a shift in in technology, right? And having lived in San Francisco for 25 years, I had a front receipt to that, right? So it was sort of like, you know, we went through the Ape Cube hierarchical, you know, it was it was about sort of metrics and you know, square foot per person. And there was no, you know, who cared about user experience, right? It was just, it was about sort of the the CFO being happy with the with the with the spreadsheet, right? And it had nothing to do with, you know, with the with the employee, right? Or the you know, the talent. You know, you went we went from that to, you know, sort of, you know, open desking or whatever, but then there was still hierarchy in terms of like, you know, different different off, you know, people, some people were still in offices, some people were in open plan, right? You know, and that was sort of you know when the internet revolution sort of came around, right? And then we went to the sort of social media thing, you know, with the rise of like the Facebooks of the world or you know, or the apps, whether it be Uber, Airbnb, um, you know, or any of the other, well, Facebook, right? Any of the others, right? Instagram, et cetera, right? And that, you know, all of a sudden it became all about, you know, sort of the user experience, right? And them really wanting to hire the best and brightest, right? And to represent who they were as an organization through their space, right? And so even though the workplace model didn't change that much, I think the aesthetic changed pretty radically. And this one, this one's big, you know, and it started after the pandemic where um a lot of our clients were saying, you know, we need to draw people back into the office, right? I think that they see the value of the human connection, right? And in some ways, you know, I think if we look at Amazon, right, what they say is like, you know, since the pandemic, they've they've hired something like 800,000 people or something. And a lot of those people have never like touched and felt and experienced the culture, right? And if you're just doing everything online, they haven't, you know, they haven't been. You can't integrate them.

Syl VanderPark 4:07

Yeah.

Collin Burry 4:08

Yeah. And so, you know, a physical space is a place for us to come together as humans and and feel that common bond bond and the energy that happens, you know, as human beings, which is which is really, really critical, right? So this one I think is driven sort

How the push to bring people back is reshaping office design

Collin Burry 4:22

of by that. But then I think the big question is what's gonna happen with AI, right? You know, and and we're just starting to scratch the surface, right? And so again, if you know, if these major shifts in sort of the workplace models and design are also driven by shifts in technology, I think this one's probably gonna be a really big one, you know. So it's sort of like the post, you know, the post-pandemic hybrid world plus, you know, this this whole thing that's driven, that's being driven by really the revolution in AI, right? And so, and it's been it's been fascinating to sort of watch, you know, and I think coming from San Francisco where everyone's always sort of rah-rah, you know, like, oh, this is so cool, right? You know, all these apps are cool or Facebook's cool or, you know, or whatever. And then all of a sudden, you know, like being here, people are a little more skeptical. You know, they're a little bit more like, oh, I'm not, you know, you know, they they're not so sure about technology, they're not so sure about AI. Of course, people are, you know, they're worried about, you know, losing their jobs. But as I often say to them, especially in the UK, like, you know, the jobs in the industrial revolution are not the jobs of today, right? You know, like there's this constant shift, right? So us saying change is constant, you know, and I think Arthur Genser always used to say, like, if something's not working for you, change it, right? So um, you know, so I think we're all gonna have to adapt and and and grow and change with the times, right? And see what this does for our industry. But yeah, so you know, back to sort of the workplace model, I think has changed significantly. You know, and our clients now say they want the office to be as comfortable as as your home, right? And that is a way to draw people back. So we're seeing um, you know, just the aesthetic of the office change radically. I mean, you know, we are designing hotels, you know, it looks like, you know, there's, you know, one, we're doing a big project right now in Paris. There's seven different restaurant experiences. You know, it's it's a big project, it's like over 300,000 square feet. There's seven different restaurant experiences, right? And they are designed as restaurants, you know, they're beautiful spaces under themselves, whether it be a French theme or Italian theme or, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And they all sort of, you know, they mirror that. And the goal is to get their people back in the office. You know, they know they're probably not going to be coming in five days a week. You know, if they want to, they're welcome to, but like, you know, they're happy with them coming in three days a week so that they can touch and feel and you know, experience the culture, right? And, you know, I think I think that's sort of, you know, where the world is at, that the wonderful world of workplace is at at the moment.

Syl VanderPark 6:34

So for the big league, you know, workplace, um, you know, where you can build where you have the resources to do do this kind of thing. You know, I just think of our business, we're a small business, and I as I'm talking with people, and uh, you know, I I love all these great ideas, all these different kinds of experiences that you can incorporate, but there are limitations that, you know, smaller businesses can have and and that kind of thing. So it's great. I I love being able to talk, you know, somebody like you that they've got these beautiful projects that is really incorporating the best of best of everything, best thought, best everything. You know, do you ever get approached by like a a smaller firm

Can human first design work on a small budget?

Syl VanderPark 7:13

or something like that? Or do you have kind of um ideas that you can just say, you know, if if you've got if you're a small to mid-sized company and you just want to add something, you're able to do that. Is it that easy to kind of yeah?

Collin Burry 7:28

Um yeah. So it's just I think it's approaching the project. I mean, that's a great question. Cause I think you I think people probably think Gens are and you know, we only do these huge projects, or whatever. We have, of course, we have some very large projects, right? But we also have a lot of really small projects, you know. And for me personally, a lot of my career was sort of built on these, these smaller projects, right? And we just finished last year a small advertising firm here. It's based in London, you know, and they um they were they were amazing because they were just like they kind of knew that they needed to do something different, right? And they'd been in space, you know, they'd they'd grown quite rapidly over the course and they've been very successful and um you know, over the course of many years, and they they were just in space that, you know, they they fired, they hired ASIA space, right? And and they moved in, you know, the furniture may have been there, you know, like they'd make small changes, whatever they could afford. And this was the first time that they were wholesaling, wholesale starting from scratch, right? And it wasn't a big budget, you know, it was actually a very lean budget. But what we basically did was apply this thinking around workplace experience, right? Because I think, you know, even you know, you've probably heard of the Genser Workplace Survey, right? And, you know, again, every year, like for the probably the past four or five years, experience, experience, experience has been at the top of the list, right? So then the question is like, how do we create that experience on a budget, you know, for a smaller firm, right? And that was really about reapportioning the space. There's a there's a very large, you know, for the small floor plate, but you know, it's all relative. You know, it's probably a third of the floor is just taken up by a big community space, right? Which doubles as cafe, event space, people co-work there, you know, on the aesthetic with that. It's in Soho here in London, which is a very, if you've ever been to West London, most people come when they come to London, it's a very vibrant, you know, like if you go on a Friday and Saturday nights, like I think it's an expression like if you don't feel alive and you know, coming to Soho on a Saturday night or something where you're jammed here. So you know, it's a very, very vibrant neighborhood, right? And it was sort of like, you know, so it was easy to kind of riff off of that, right? And to kind of bring a calmer version of that, you know, in into the office, right? And so it has a very sort of London aesthetic, you know. It feels like it could be a, you know, park pub, part restaurant, park, part hotel, right? And then of course there's still, you know, the typical work areas with cist and desks and other kinds of things. But even those, you know, we're doing more and more to kind of make those look less corporate, whether it be color or form or, you know, other types of things to kind of take it into kind of a brave, you know, this brave new world of really hospitality um meets meets workplace. And so I don't think it matters really in terms of, you know, budget. It's it's how you approach it. And again, this model that is shifted, right? And um, but I think, I mean, that's a great question because it's, you know, I think we really do believe in design for all. And Arthur Gens always used to say, like every project, whether we're designing a six centimeter, you know, wine bottle, the six hundred meter tower in Shanghai or whatever, like they're, you know, they're all great opportunities, and we're gonna put the same level of energy, you know, towards them as we would, you know, a bigger project.

Syl VanderPark 10:26

So it can be daunting to think

Does the quality of the environment actually drive people back?

Syl VanderPark 10:28

about this. You know, I want to get your perspective on something that feels like, for me, a real tension in the workplace design right now. And we were talking about kind of the hybrid and the AI, but I'm just gonna go in a different direction here. There's been a lot of progress around neurodesign. And human-centered design, really thinking about how environments support different modes of work, different cognitive needs, and overall experience. But at the same time that there's this strong push to return to office, and not every organization has the ability or maybe even the willingness to fully invest in those kinds of environments. From a design leadership perspective, do you see a disconnect there? And how much does the quality of the environment actually influence whether people want to come back and engage with the workplace?

Collin Burry 11:14

Huge. And I think that, I mean, again, our workplace survey really, really supports that, you know. Um, if you, you know, I mean, I I'm old enough that I'm probably underdiagnosed something. Yeah, it is the U.S.

Syl VanderPark 11:26

We managed to fly under the radar.

Collin Burry 11:30

You know, but for me, it's like even when you're enough, it's like I have to have my spot, right? And it's like I'm very particular or whatever, right? And sort of like, um, but again, like the again, kind of going back to this advertising firm, like we that was a huge push for us, right? Because, you know, and the the the CO CEO is amazing. She's like, I want to make sure that everybody feels welcome here, right? So again, they didn't have the money, you know, they don't have a huge budget to like provide, you know, oh, Zen spas and all these other things or whatever that some of our clients, you know, or sound baths and all these, all these things that some some clients might too, yoga rooms. But there are spaces that are like, you know, they're the the coloration, like it's you know, we have very sort of uh like soothing, sort of, you know, entirely the entire, you know, kind of the entire room is sort of monochromatic, and it's like there's nothing jarring about it, right? There's not pattern, it's just a simple, soothing color, and that's in the furniture and you know, in the walls, and the carpet. So that, you know, and that's just there's you know, there's a few rooms. We have a quiet, you know, there's a there is a quiet library, right, that someone could go, and the rules in there that you can't be in your cell phone, right? You know, you're just you're just there to work, right? So it again, it's not, you know, I don't think it's about, you know, creating spaces that are inclusive or um, you know, it's I think I think we're all learning kind of how to do that. You know, it has to do with pattern, it has to do with light, it has to do with noise, and providing that variety of spaces, you know, that someone can go, right? So, you know, you know, again, our survey sort of reinforced that, right? That they sort of sort of now flexibility is key in terms of, and it's not flexibility in terms of a bunch of movable furniture, it's flexibility in terms of like me as a human, um, I have different needs than than you or others, right? And so making sure that they're somewhere in that in that workplace that someone can go that what you know that they'll feel they'll feel comfortable, right? They'll feel appreciated, you know, and they'll be they'll be able to continue to be productive.

Syl VanderPark 13:16

Do you get like a report from somebody else, or do you guys conduct that kind of analysis of like looking to cover what everybody and the workers all kind of um would feel comfortable with, like their specific needs, or is that an HR kind of report that you get from the company?

Collin Burry 13:34

Usually there's not an HR report. It usually comes to us more from the perspective of like, you know, um, this isn't my project, so I you know, I probably can't speak to as intelligently about it as Megan, the designer that did it, that we did for Virgin Media last year, right? And and they came to them with a mandate that this has to be, which is actually very UK, like the UK, I think are very people who are very, very supportive, you know, of the differences, right? If you work, if you designed a project for BBC or whatever, like that's it's included, period, right? So it's almost like they're coming to us, sort of like sustainability, right? You know, they'll come to us and say we want to lead, we want to do BREM, these are the kinds of things, right? They'll come and they'll say, Sometimes we work with a consultant, you know, they might hire an outside consultant, and sometimes, you know, we didn't work although we're also work with the big bank, they actually bring a consultant in, right? And they'll look at our all of our furniture, they'll look at our finishes, you know, they'll look at our lighting to make sure that it's not jarring, right? That there's not something about the patterns, you know, that are gonna set people off or whatever, right? So it's like, um, but it's something that I think we've all learned through working with these consultants, right? Or a request from our clients. And again, I think we've just scratched the surface in terms of exactly how to do it, but you know, more and more and more um designers are really, I think designers were adapting our approach to make sure that it is something that is top of mind. And I mean, I love the earlier career people that I work with because for them, it's just like it's a given, right? It's not something that even the client has to ask for. They're just gonna they're gonna make sure that, you know, that we're designing for it.

Syl VanderPark 15:03

Yeah, it seems like it's kind of a new thing over here in the States, but it sounds perhaps more progressed over there.

Collin Burry 15:10

I can't speak, you know, I've been here now just seven years. So I mean, it was definitely something that we were talking about, but I don't know to this degree, right? And I think that is like a beautiful generational shift, right? Because it's sort of like, you know, I the other fascinating thing about workplaces, I think it's also like if we think of the tall A by A cubes or whatever, right? Like that was a more closed society, right? It's like people were more, you had your work life and your personal life, right? And then we always talked about, you know, those two worlds merging or whatever, but like they've birds now, right? For the generations that are working in the workplace, they don't care if you're purple, green, orange, yellow or whatever, right? You know, and and they all like stand up for you, right? And so it's sort of like as the, you know, as society has opened up, you know, I think the workplace has opened up, right? The walls have sort of come down and you're able to bring your own best authentic self into the workplace, right?

Syl VanderPark 15:58

Yeah, it's like a glee club kind of thing. Yeah, right.

Collin Burry 16:01

Yeah, which is really important, right? Because I think, you know, it was one of the great things about the valley, because I remember, you know, I think I was at a social event or whatever, and I was talking to one of the founders of Intuit and and and he was saying, like, I don't, you know, and he wasn't like said to me, like, I don't care if you're purple, green or whatever. If like if you're really good at what you do, that like bring it, you know. And he wanted that's why he wanted people to be their authentic selves, you know, at work. And and that mindset has been there for a while. So I think that's you know, maybe in the US there's parts that that isn't true, but I think there are parts where it's very true, you know, and and that's in many ways driven by I think, you know, tech firms are the ones, you know, these, these, these people that are sort of innovating the future of the world in a lot of ways, right? And I think in some like here, it's just part of society, right? Because I think people are tolerant and open and wanting to support each other.

Syl VanderPark 16:46

Aaron Powell As a bit of a follow-up.

Is brand intentionality in workplace design now a necessity?

Syl VanderPark 16:48

You've worked on projects where the Wordplace is really an extension of brand and experience like Airbnb and other major tech environments. Do you think that level of intentionality is becoming necessary now rather than optional if companies expect people to return?

Collin Burry 17:02

Absolutely. Like 100% right is more important than ever, right? Because if again, kind of going back to the Amazon example, right? You know, what's the what's the purpose of the workplace, though? I mean, the purpose of the workplace is to have, well, me as talent coming into the organization, feel, touch, experience what the culture is, right? And you know, as the great Bruce Mao, you know, says, like everything communicates, right? So obviously we have oral communication, we have written communication, right? But a space communicates something, right? And if you come in and it's like super uptight and but uh, you know, it's like, oh, I want to just you know, over-organized everybody, you know, it's like that communicates something, right? Versus coming into a space that's comfortable, right? And it's like, you know, maybe it's even, you know, maybe some bedroom for architects, but like a little bit decorated, right? You know, there's interesting things on the shelving, there's things to look at, there's amazing art, there's amazing branding, right? So I think the entire package now is a three-dimensional representation of who that organization is, and it is communicating a message to their people that they're valued, right? And then also the values of the organization, right? And I think for a long time we used to talk about that, but it was almost like we put stickers on the wall to say, you know, we value, blah, blah, blah, whatever, right? You know, and and with the at the time that was really revolutionary because that had really hadn't been done before. But now I think it's like, you know, it's it's holistic, right? In terms of, you know, if you have given organizations saying they're sustainable, you know, and they have these, you know, target neutrality targets, right? Or or or carbon neutrality targets, right? Or um inclusion, you know, inclusion targets, whatever. And you come in and the workspace is in no way supporting you, you know, and you know, I don't know, they're using a bunch of toxic materials because it was cheaper, right? Or whatever, right? You know, that that is that sends a message that, you know, that they're you know, they're not kind of putting their money where through their mouth is. But um, which I think is also fascinating because the other thing we're starting to see is that, you know, it used to be that real estate oftentimes, most of the time actually reported to the finance, you know, to the CFO. And now we're starting to see more and more that it's, you know, the chief talent officer, the chief, you know, human resources officer, you know, and their emphasis is on their people, right? And the health and well-being of their people and making sure that they're, you know, again, that they can bring, you know, their full self to work, that they're taken care of by the organization for at least from a space perspective.

Syl VanderPark 19:20

Are you finding any resistance to

Are return to office mandates actually working?

Syl VanderPark 19:22

return to office or is it too soon to tell, do you think?

Collin Burry 19:24

Yes, there is resistance, right? I think I think most people are, but I think they're doing it on on their terms, right? I don't think mandates really work now. You know, um again, the the survey kind of reinforced that, right? Any any of the firms that have mandated these things, people are still finding ways to do what they need to do, right? And and I think that's important, right? That we support that. You know, if we're not creating an environment that's attractive enough for them to come in or it's hard for them to come in or whatever, then we haven't really done our our jobs, right? So if we have put time and attention into creating a a place that is special for them, right, then I think they do come in, right? Um but yeah, there of course there's always people that are gonna be resistant, right? I think I think, you know, thank goodness now we're more uh, I think we acknowledge, right, especially like working parents or you know, dog parents or whatever, you know, we've it's it's hard, right? To to is you know, I'm working parents like my hat off to them. It's like I don't know how they do it sometimes, but you know, of course we're gonna give them the the flexibility that they need. I think that's the other sort of major theme, right? That keeps coming into the survey is like flexibility is really key.

Syl VanderPark 20:35

Flexibility, yeah.

Collin Burry 20:36

Yeah. And you know, I think, you know, at least for guns, like we trust our people, right? There's very few people that abuse it, you know. And and but I think as creatives, you know, me as a designer, it's important that I also help, especially people that may not have had a lot of experience, right, to understand that like the the human connection and the sparks and the creativity that come out of being together as humans is way greater than trying to do it over Teams or a Zoom call or whatever, right? You know, it happens, but it takes a lot of time, you know, and maybe as the tools and the technology catches up, you know, it's getting better and better. But um, you know, maybe there'll become a time when that same energy is there, but there's still something that's a little bit separate, right? And I think that what I've seen is like the best work comes out of people coming together, right? And when your brainstorming, you're serving, you know, and that even if that's for a short period of time, right? That that can that can take the team, you know, a long way in terms of you know its effectiveness and doing doing the best the best work we can.

Syl VanderPark 21:33

Yeah, I think, you know, uh being, you know, meeting in in person, um you get, you know, all the kind of body language and you get to read each other a little bit more, humor can come across better. You know. Um so so there there is an opportunity for a camaraderie to develop, you know, in those times and spontaneous things to happen. And I just always feel like on these on you know, on this Okay, this is for this is allotted for this amount of time. And meetings can in-person meetings can be like that too, but there's always a you know, you you're leaving and then that little extra conversation happens that once you hang up, you're you're you're done. You're not gonna have that hallway conversation and that kind of thing. So now when you say workplace design needs to become

What frictionless workplace design really means in practice

Syl VanderPark 22:19

frictionless, what does that word mean to you in concrete project terms? And what does it not mean?

Collin Burry 22:25

To become frictionless means that the the office or the space is not in my way of me doing my job, right? That you know, if you come in and it's you know, it's hard to navigate the space, right? You know, maybe you're going to a new office, you're you know, you're with a global company organization and you're going to the new office for the first time, you know, or something, and you can't find your way around, you can't find people, you don't know where the coffee bar is, right? You don't live with the toilet or whatever it is, right? You know, so it's sort of like there's sort of that element, but it's also like how do we how do we take the pain points out of it for people so that you know that it's much more fluid.

Syl VanderPark 23:01

I just want to jump back a second, talking about, you know, getting together in person. Do you find so you know talking about kind of the wide, a very wide range now of recognized kind of different personality types and work types and you know, everything that the the neurodesign attempts to accommodate and that kind of thing? Do you find that being in person in general still an applicable, applicably good format? Or is all of this kind of neurodesign like basically do you find that people adapt well to working in person together, or are you finding that there's fragmentation and that you have to accommodate people kind of in different ways? Or is it still just the same old world and we're and and there's we can still get the same work done in the same way, generally speaking?

Collin Burry 23:57

I don't know if you completely understand the question, but part of it is like I think um people are amazingly adaptable, right? I mean, those of us of a certain generation like me, you know, I we ain't will have a choice but to adapt, right? And I so I do think that people are very flexible, at least of a certain generation. I think the younger people are a little bit more like, no, you have to help me with my situation, right? So that's and that's fine, you know, but I mean they're standing up for what what what they need and they and they should, right? And if the organization isn't willing to adapt with them, then shame on the organization. But you know, so I think adaptation comes from both sides, right? It's both the the talent and the you know, the employer, right? Who who, you know, we have to work together to kind of figure out a happy place. And you know, of course we're never gonna take care of everybody, right? So I mean this is you know, but we can at least make an effort and and try.

Syl VanderPark 24:50

And I'm just thinking back, like there's always there was always people in meetings who maybe didn't participate for one reason or another. And now we're just trying to kind of accommodate and uh pay attention to them and personally kind of welcome them in and bring them in. Um, I think there's more attention to that. So, you know, I I just I but I think kind of the in a way the old style of working still works. And maybe that's not that's not clear enough, but anyway.

Collin Burry 25:18

Yeah. Well, I think some of the things some of what we are touching on though is probably leadership, right? Like you or me as a leader, we need to if if they're you know, I'm ironically, like I'm an introvert, you know, when I did, you know, and you know, and I've had to alert I had to work really hard to learn to be to speak up, right? And to like, I mean, oh my gosh, like before public speaking, I wouldn't sleep for like a month before, right? You know, it's crazy. And now I just like I don't even think about it. It's like, you know, of course I've do my research, you know, I'm prepared, whatever. So it's like, you know, then I don't get too stressed out, but like, yeah, of course you get nervous and you get, you know, you eat butterflies. But like what's interesting about that is like I think it's a leadership thing, right? That we as leaders have had to learn to adapt our leadership style, you know. You know, I always, you know, I always try to make a point. I'm not perfect at this, but I always try to make a point that, you know, if we're if we're meeting with a team, and there are some people that are shyer, right? And, you know, are more introverted or whatever, to ask them what they think, right? And sometimes they speak up and sometimes they don't. And oftentimes when they do speak up, they actually have the most fascinating point of view, right? And there's some people that just think they need to talk all the time, and everything they're saying is fascinating, right? Or whatever, but they anyway, you know, so you know, navigating how to like kind of get them to like allow space for other people to speak, right? And um, I think that's gotten better though, too, because again, I think because the early career people are more aware of each other, right? And, you know, and I think they give each other space, right, and support. And it's very, I find them very positive, right? And very supportive. You know, it's it's kind of a beautiful thing, you know, they're really, really supportive each of each other. And I think feeling that support, then I think more and more people feel comfortable, right, to be able to speak up, right? And to, you know, to claim their, you know, their, you know, or to state their vision or whatever it is that they might want to share. But yeah.

Syl VanderPark 27:05

Yeah, no, I just, I just I always love hearing about, you know, you know, people's experiences with, you know, new workers coming in and kind of the blend and how that all works out. And yeah, it comes down to uh leadership.

Collin Burry 27:18

I mean, the one thing that I would ask, which is like, I think sometimes sometimes I do think the early career people sort of look at the older people and go, like, oh, you're narrow-minded or you're this or whatever. But it's like they have to kind of remember that it was people like us that fought for this new world that they're in, right? So it's sort of like, and I hope they don't forget that because it's like, you know, that wasn't easy because there was a lot of people that like, you know, whether it be women or whatever it is, right?

Syl VanderPark 27:41

Yeah, they don't realize, yeah, the where it's coming from. Yeah.

Collin Burry 27:45

Yeah, a lot of struggle, you know, a lot of personal struggle in order to make that happen, right? And and a lot of them are a lot of them are very appreciative, though I have to say. So it's not, you know, I don't think they're entitled. It's just I don't think there's an awareness, right?

Syl VanderPark 27:56

So it's like sometimes, but there's still a full level of commitment still yet to be given, you know. So uh this could this could phase in, this could phase out, you know. So depending on how things go. So like behave yourselves, do a good job, make it, make it a winning model here for us to uh, you know, to to really care this much. You know, it's an unprecedented amount, I think, that we're caring now.

Collin Burry 28:22

I know they're amazing. I mean, they really are. I learn so much from them every day, right? I really, really do. And they inspire me, they challenge me, right? It's like, so I don't know. I it's refreshing. Yeah. I I mean, I personally I love it, you know. Um, but yeah, it gets me up in the morning. So yeah, it keeps me and it keeps me, yeah, it keeps me on my toes and keeps me engaged in this industry, which which I love. And the people are they're amazing. I mean, the people in our industry really are amazing. You know, you get a group of designers together and there's this special bond that happens, right? It is it is magic, you know, it really is.

Syl VanderPark 28:55

And it's the future, you know, you're involved in the future, and and there's nothing really quite as exhilarating as that. You know, you're you're looking at technology, you're looking at the people, you're saying, look at all the opportunities that are there are here. And so um, yeah, they're lucky to have you um in in the place that you are.

Collin Burry 29:11

Yeah, and the future is bright. I will say that. I because I do I you know, I see them and I'm just like, wow, you know, like some of them are just like, wow, you know, yeah. And it that's fun to watch, right? And to watch um to watch them grow. And so I know we're in really, really good hands as we move forward.

Syl VanderPark 29:26

So I love it. Which of the inherited

Which inherited design rules have the shortest shelf life?

Syl VanderPark 29:29

workplace design rules do you think have the shortest shelf life left? And why are they the hardest to let go inside of a practice?

Collin Burry 29:36

Hierarchy is still a little bit there in certain industries, certain sectors, right? Um, you know, I think it's kind of it's gone in the technology sector, you know. I think though there are not to call it in them out, but you know, I do think that there's still uh yeah, there's still there are still some sectors that are still a little bit stuck on hierarchy, you know, and and that is starting to go away though, like slowly but surely, you know, we're starting to see it. So they're sort of like like late, late to the game a little bit, but um, yeah, I would say hierarchy. I think the organizations that just build a space and still focus on the bottom line, you know, it's just it's all about schedule and budget or whatever. Like you're not gonna get a successful space. And you can still meet a schedule and you can still design an amazing space on a low budget. It's just a different mindset and what you put forward as what you're gonna value and what your objectives and strategy is for the project. And, you know, so it's not, yeah, it's not about how much money you spend or don't spend or whatever, right? It's about a mindset and and having that vision and challenging the designers from the onset and supporting them in, you know, in delivering that vision.

Syl VanderPark 30:45

Aaron Powell Going back to hierarchy, do you think that they're because in my research it was like, well, if the leader is not visible, there's no motivation then to try and become a leader, you know, if there is no kind of maybe separation or kind of special desk that that person works at, for example. You know, you want to aspire to something greater. Do you think that's disappearing and people are just saying, hey, I'm just gonna be in my lane and I know there's enough tools out there, especially in today's world, that if I'm not being recognized here or moving up in the company here, there's gonna be something else I can do.

Collin Burry 31:24

The physical space, I think who cares, right? Like I mean, I sit in the open, you know, we're where you are free to dress. Um I think it's more now about who who the leaders are as as as people and the the example that they're setting, right? And is that inspirational to the the folks that are, you know, that that they're that they're working with, right? And um yeah, I do I also think again those walls have really come down a lot of ways, you know, in terms of I do think they feel they can speak up, you know, that they that they have a voice. I mean, I think that was the culture, you know, that they grew up in, or that the kind of environment, you know, kind of society that they grew up in.

Syl VanderPark 32:04

I have a a seven-year-old daughter, and we're looking, you know, I'm looking at different schools, and one of the schools is um it's an all-girls school, and um they really want to cultivate the girls to become contributors and leaders, you know, um to leave their mark, to focus in their life. I'm gonna leave my mark. And uh so that's kind of neat. But, you know, that might be where we're all kind of headed, you know, that the children are being taught you every every single person, you know, can be a contributor, can be a leader in their own way. And so we become a society of, you know, leader, thoughtful leader leaders, giving each other the room to do our own thing and recognizing each other. That's kind of maybe the utopia or something that we're striving towards. You've called interior design part of an old system. For an interior designer to listening today and feeling defensive potentially, what would you tell them is broken and what is still worth keeping?

Collin Burry 33:03

I do think in some of the creative fields, um, I think there are systems that are still sort of a little bit stuck. Hopefully that will change. I think interior design, especially commercial interior design, I do think because of the nature of our clients and what we're challenged to do, you know, there may be aspects of it that are old or whatever. But like I think we're we have to in order to stay

What separates a workplace that feels right from one that just looks right?

Collin Burry 33:24

relevant, we constantly have to be rethinking, reinventing, pushing forward, right? Um, to new places because that's what our clients are doing, right? And I think we mirror, we mirror our clients. And um, yeah, I mean, it it's you know, without our clients, we're we don't exist, right? So it's like, you know, I think we're very fortunate that we get to work with some of the best and brightest clients in the world, you know, and um new who take us new places, right? You know, I mean we we we hopefully take them new places, but I think just you know, they they take us new places too. So um, you know, I can't, you know, I I do think though I don't want to call anybody out or any sectors, but I think you know, there's adjunct industry parts of our industry, right, that that need to adapt and change, you know, and it's hard, right? Because like you you you're set on a business model, you're set on certain things or whatever, and you know, the ones that that do adapt with the times will will prosper and the ones that don't, you know, as we see.

Syl VanderPark 34:22

You describe yourself as a soft modernist and a left and right brain designer. How does that show up in the trade-offs you make between experience, ergonomics, and aesthetics on a brief?

Collin Burry 34:34

I think, you know, and in some ways, even that statement is probably a little bit uh well, is it relevant anymore? Like I think, you know, I I definitely believe in sort of contemporary design, right? And modern design. Because I think like at heart, I am probably more of a sort of you know, a mid-century modernist, but the soft part is like, you know, adding the human touch. It's not so everything's so rigid and whatever that we sort of lose the human, right? And I think even for me, the modernist part is starting to subside and sort of the human aspect is starting to rise even more. Um and so I think that's and if again, back to this thing of like drawing people back to an office or to a space or whatever, right? I think if the human's not there and the expensive experiential thing isn't there, then that's probably not going to be a place that people want to be, right? So, well, you know, in my heart as a designer, I'd love everything to be really, you know, organized and whatever, right? Like, you know, not everybody, that's not what everybody appreciates, right? So it's like it's for me to again to provide and design spaces that, you know, from the soft perspective, you know, appeal, appeal to everybody and provide that humanity, you know. And I think I think what's interesting though, like sort of to go to sustainability, one of the things we're seeing is like, because um we're doing these more hospitality spaces, uh the only thing that I kind of question is like it requires oftentimes a lot of materials and a lot of different things, right? And is that the best thing to do for the environment? Right. Or do we need to sort of reevaluate that and say, how do we create spaces people want to be, but that they're also really sustainable, right? And in some ways, modernism, like a really strip simple space, can do that because you're using, you're using the least, right? And when you're using more, is that sustainable? So that's the only thing that I sort of, you know, struggle with in my head right now is like how do we how do we sort of balance, you know, balance those two worlds, right? And is there a way to still keep the space superhuman and not be using, you know, 300 finishes on a project or something, you know, or whatever it might be, you know. Um, although we're probably keeping a lot of different organizations very happy by using a lot of different things. But um, yeah, because that's the only and again, I don't know what's right or wrong, but we're uh we're in the midst of that, right? And um, it'll be fascinating to sort of see how that plays out, you know. But I think circularity plays a big part of that, which is kind of fascinating. Like if, you know, in the Netherlands, the government actually mandated mandated that projects use 70% uh, you know, reuse of furniture, you know. And so, you know, there's probably way, you know, so I think we can still create these very humanistic spaces, right? Humanistic type spaces, right, that are rich and visually interesting and stuff. It just may not be that it's all new furniture, right? We may be, you know, or so we might be curating a lot of new used furniture or vintage furniture or whatever into, you know, into a space. So I think that's probably kind of the future.

Syl VanderPark 37:21

Which really appeals to I know the millennials for sure, you know, um, this the thrift shop and kind of upcycle uh kind of um culture that they have.

Collin Burry 37:31

Which was appealing to my generation too. Is this I don't know, I don't know, you're probably too young, but like I did you have value diligence in Toronto?

Syl VanderPark 37:38

That was the place to go. All the treasures that you could find there.

Collin Burry 37:43

Right? I'm like my mom was like, I don't know about this. I don't know if that's healthy for you or something. Like it wasn't because of like like a physical healthy, it was like a mental healthy. I don't know why she thought. Actually, I need to ask her that. But anyway, but she was worried about me going, but I bought all these vintage clothes because it was cool, right? You know?

Syl VanderPark 37:56

I mean, there were all the um what was it called? What you know, you get the the old military boots and the jackets because you know, I grew up in the 90s, so it was like, you know, the big black boots and whatever um the reuse stuff, and my mom just thought, what is happening to my daughter? But you know, um, but yeah, Value Village, I can oh my gosh, that just I just saw the There was a flashback story that took you.

Collin Burry 38:20

That was great.

Syl VanderPark 38:20

I'm just thinking mugs, you know, all the crazy mugs and you know albums and are they still around?

Collin Burry 38:26

I wonder.

Syl VanderPark 38:27

I think so.

Collin Burry 38:27

I think they're still in Vancouver because I think I remember when I was just there. I thought it would joke. That is totally funny. I have to go back. Yeah.

Syl VanderPark 38:36

Yeah, but no, I just, you know, I just I I I guess I I guess as we got older, you know, we don't really do that anymore. The our generation, maybe we do, I don't know. But I I just find that um because I also get involved with uh art here, you know, um and a lot of people come in and and they say, Well, we just like to buy our art from the thrift stores. And everything that, you know, they they try to do everything, all the furniture that they get is really there. I feel like they're more intentional and more mindful uh from the millennials. Whereas I was never thinking, I think we grew up with like IKEA, like just bring it all in, but you know, I don't know.

Collin Burry 39:17

Yeah, and then you'd find the imaginary, you'd find these like mid-century finds that were like, wow, right? Like a really cool tear or an ashtray or you know, I don't know, some you know, some magazine stand or a tear or something, and that was like, oh, what you know a treasure. It's a treasure. Yeah.

Syl VanderPark 39:33

We've got we've got um, oh, I can't remember the name of it, but we've got like a thrift store, and sometimes it's just fun just to go down and see all the kettles and stuff like that that they still have. So what do you miss about Canada?

Collin Burry 39:45

What do you miss about Canada? Oh, the beauty. It's so pretty, right? The people are so nice. Um, obviously.

Syl VanderPark 39:52

Well, I mean, Vancouver, you have the mountains. I mean, holy smokes, yeah. Skiing Vancouver Island and all that stuff.

Collin Burry 39:58

Yeah, it was a very active city, right? Like you have to, I think to survive with the rainy winters, you have to be very active, right? And I kind of miss that, right? Because it's just part of the culture, you know, and you're outside all the time and boating and this and that and skiing and you know, boating in the summer and skiing in the winter, you know. Um, but yeah, no, it's uh London's a really amazing place to live though. So I'm not gonna complain. But yeah.

Syl VanderPark 40:21

Yeah. Well, it's just different. My brother was working in um, he worked in the film industry doing um like 3D animation stuff for a while. So he was in London and in he was in London too, but in Vancouver, and I went out to visit him and he took me to this place called, I think it was called Morrissey's for Proteen. So that's that was my big memory of of uh visiting him in Vancouver, but it was nice. Across Apple, Pixar, Nike, Samsung, and Airbnb, you have seen the highest stakes workplace briefs in the world.

The single pattern that defines a project with soul

Syl VanderPark 40:51

What is a single pattern that separates a project that feels right from one that just looks right?

Collin Burry 40:56

I think when the organization is being genuine, right, when they're coming to us with a brief and allowing us to interpret the brief, right? Or not allowing us, but you know, that we interpret the brief kind of through their eyes and that it's authentic. You know, I think it's it's really kind of that simple, right? When it kind of comes from an inauthentic place where they don't really know who they are. If they're if they're willing to be on a journey to help us, you know, us to help them discover who they are from a physical space standpoint, that's that's very rewarding. But yeah, I think it's like when they're when they're being authentic, right? And being true to what they what they say.

Syl VanderPark 41:30

Sustainability and ergonomics often get treated as separate boxes on a workplace brief.

How sustainability and ergonomics connect through a human first lens

Syl VanderPark 41:35

In your human-first design language, how do they actually connect? And where do designers most often get the connection wrong?

Collin Burry 41:41

Aaron Powell If you think of everything we need to know now, I mean it's kind of crazy, right? We have to understand, we have to understand we need to know something about sustainability, we need to know something about ergonomics, we have to understand some element of brand, we have to understand sort of the digital world, right? You know, we have to understand A V. You know, it's like, you know, I think it's all things that we are in our toolkit, right? To be able to exploit in a positive way to the fullest, right? And so sustainability, you know, I think sustainability is about health, right? Ergonomics is about health, right? So I think that's the common connection is around health, right? Health of the individual, health of the planet. That's what I would probably see was the common connection there.

Syl VanderPark 42:18

Thank you so much for your time. It's been a real fun time.

Collin Burry 42:20

Thank you. Yeah, uh talking about stuff. Yeah, with a fellow Canadian. With a fellow Canadian, always fun.

Syl VanderPark 42:26

And a surprise, I had no idea, so that's great. Thanks for checking out Workspace Design Lab. If you're an architect, interior designer, or workplace professional looking to stay ahead in ergonomic office design and modern workspace interiors, make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast platform. For more resources on sustainable office furniture and human centered workspace design, visit us at Novalink.com. Until next time,